BlueskyUnfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users.
While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
Eugen Rochko@bsky.app And this is why real decentralization matters. There is nobody that can decide for the fediverse to block Mississippi.
Mike MasnickI feel like this is potentially misleading, Eugen? Both because others can host their own views of the network, but also will the largest instances, which you run, be willing to pay the $10k/user fines in Mississippi?
Because the state can still go after instances, no?
Nemes ContentIt's really not meant to be a gotcha kinda thing. I'm just trying to understand the actual complaint.
Fair point, and I believe you but I've see how conversations between fedi and bluesky usually goes.
Many people still think atproto is centralized and corporate controlled on the fedi side.
I am curious how eugene will respond since fedi runs tge whole instance as a site that talks to other sites.
My larger point is simply that this is a bad law that impacts both Mastodon and Bluesky (and the wider Fediverse/Atmosphere) and it seems like a reason to work together to fix the law (i.e., with @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy) than to use it to take potshots at each other. The law is bad.
@[email protected] The law is bad, nobody said otherwise. But decentralized systems are supposed to be resilient. If the US makes a law banning all mentions of LGBT from social media, which sounds less unlikely by the minute, what will Bluesky do? All of your infrastructure is controlled by one US company…
Your final point is incorrect. Please don't spread misinfo about stuff like that.
Glyph@[email protected] @Gargron wait, what infrastructure is beyond Bluesky Social PBC's control?
A lot? There are independent instances of ATproto infrastructure that are not controlled by Bluesky. There are totally independent PDS's, relays, and appviews.
Folker@[email protected] @glyph @Gargron
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
@folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron what fraction is this? What software are they using? I would really like to even understand how this *might* work. (the fediverse is also, after all, still relatively centralized in practice, with a substantial majority of users still on mastodon ggmbh infrastructure. But other active independent instances do point a way to a less central future)
ikuturso 🇪🇺@glyph @folkerschamel @[email protected] @Gargron one datapoint is that I believe there's s less than six thousand users on a third party PDS out of the 30+ million registered users total. So roughly 1 out of like 5,000 or 0.02%... For the other services like third party web apps it's almost certainly even worse since you can count them with one hand and they're tiny or just experimentation by some dev. It's just not at all comparable to Mastodon.
edit: revised to more accurate
What you believe and what reality may be are two different things. It's pretty silly to make your arguments based on false info someone told you.
This stupid Mastodon hate for Bluesky which always involves blatant disinformation is so stupid. We both face the same issues and should work together on it. Instead you want to have a purity contest. What the fuck?
@[email protected] Ikuturso's estimate is admittedly unsourced, but for this to rise to the bar of "disinformation", there would have to be accurate information somewhere that is being suppressed or ignored. If 0.003% is incorrect, do you have a better number?
@[email protected] The big example being repeatedly touted as the big Bluesky-independent group is Blacksky. But Blacksky is very small. https://opencollective.com/blacksky shows 965 contributors, which is right in line with that 1000-user estimate (not every blacksky user is on their PDS, a few other indie devs operate experimental PDSes, but it seems like it'd be a wash to me)
Blacksky only opened up its PDS like a week ago and has been slowly letting people in. So that's 1000 people in a week. Give it at least a bit of time.
But I see you moving goalposts. "Oh it's not decentralized." "Oh it is, but not enough." "Oh, the other providers are too small"
The whole point is that people are building a decentralized thing here. Really decentralized. And, yes, building takes time. Some people are helping. But you and a small group of others want to run a purity contest with moving goalposts.
It's such a waste of time.
@[email protected] I am, personally, *really* trying to avoid abstruse exercises in semiotics about whose heart is the purest and most decentralized. I am trying to get a *clear picture* of how much control, over what populations of users, rests in whose hands right now, so we can have a fact-based conversation.
@[email protected] You've called your interlocutors here (myself included) hateful, stupid, goalpost-moving liars conducting pointless purity contests. You can see me that way if you like, I guess, but I think that if you're going to characterize us that way you *at least* should have some concrete facts to hand, that show that our information is, like, *materially* wrong, and not just that there are some hopeful inklings on the margins?
Whoa. I did not call people names. I called out false arguments and said they were a waste of time.
But, okay. I'm done with this. You're now attacking me, not arguments. I don't need this.
I hope you'll actually look more honestly at what's happening here. But I doubt you will. Bye.
@[email protected] I am just telling you how this post reads to someone else on the other side of the argument: "This stupid Mastodon hate for Bluesky which always involves blatant disinformation is so stupid.". If you are not intending to give insult, maybe consider other words than "stupid" and "hate" to communicate your feelings. I am really doing my best here. But it does seem clear we are at an impasse.
Roland Muts*screeching noise* "move those goal posts again!"
C'mon, man!
Reread the thread again, and take out the emotion this time.
@rhcmuts.bsky.social If you're interested in jumping in here, maybe I can avoid bothering Mike. I honestly did not understand the "moving goalposts" comment *at all* above, and I understand it even less now. Where do you feel like the goalposts were at the beginning, and where do you think I moved them to?
I don't have links handy but both @mackuba.eu and @laurenshof.online have been tracking atproto usage outside of Bluesky. But taking a snapshot in time is meaningless. There were pieces that needed to be built, but almost all of them have been built and now we're seeing truly third party offerings.
jandi@[email protected] @mackuba.eu @laurenshof.online @glyph This is asynchronous, no hurries, would love to see some links later!