BlueskyUnfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users.
While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
Eugen Rochko@bsky.app And this is why real decentralization matters. There is nobody that can decide for the fediverse to block Mississippi.
Mike MasnickI feel like this is potentially misleading, Eugen? Both because others can host their own views of the network, but also will the largest instances, which you run, be willing to pay the $10k/user fines in Mississippi?
Because the state can still go after instances, no?
Nemes ContentIt's really not meant to be a gotcha kinda thing. I'm just trying to understand the actual complaint.
Fair point, and I believe you but I've see how conversations between fedi and bluesky usually goes.
Many people still think atproto is centralized and corporate controlled on the fedi side.
I am curious how eugene will respond since fedi runs tge whole instance as a site that talks to other sites.
My larger point is simply that this is a bad law that impacts both Mastodon and Bluesky (and the wider Fediverse/Atmosphere) and it seems like a reason to work together to fix the law (i.e., with @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy) than to use it to take potshots at each other. The law is bad.
Folker@[email protected] @Gargron Fixing the law and arguing for a truly decentralized social network should not be an either/or proposition.
Yeah, but come on. This is nitpicking different approaches to centralization as a total distraction from the simple fact the law is bad for both approaches.
@[email protected] @Gargron
Well, I don't see it as nitpicking...
Nobody was questioning the architecture of #twitter either as long as everybody was happy with their governance... We should do better this time.
Well, I don't see it as nitpicking...
Nobody was questioning the architecture of #twitter either as long as everybody was happy with their governance... We should do better this time.
It is nitpicking PRECISELY because this law DOES NOT CHANGE ITS ANALYSIS based on the architecture of a website. It implies you dunking on Bluesky for ideological reasons, which makes no sense because THE LAW IS JUST AS BAD FOR MASTODON.
Stop it.
Yes, but my point is that the consequences for the users are much worse for #bluesky users because of lack of decentralization https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115080383013572736
A bad law does not eliminate the difference between effectively centralized and decentralized social networks.
Notice that, at no point in this discussion, have I criticized the tradeoffs and limits of ActivityPub, because IT DOES NOT MATTER UNDER THE LAW. Only you want to keep arguing over which approach is more pure. It's weird dude. It's irrelevant to the law.
The consequences are just as bad for each.
You already said that and it was equally unrelated to what we're talking about then. I honestly find it pretty silly that you're trying to use the fact that you hope Mastodon instances break the law... as a reason why you want to claim it's better.
That's stupid. The law is bad for both.
@[email protected] @Gargron I never said or implied that, see https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115080383013572736
But, again, that post is simply factually incorrect. I get that many people over there falsely believe it's true, but you should educate yourself on the current state of things.
Aaron Mills 🏳️⚧️If your instance blocks you from accessing on Mastodon due to a law you need to use a VPN. The instance is aware of your IP.
If Bluesky blocks you from accessing due to a law, it can trivially be bypassed by using a different app or your browser lying to the code. You're not blocked from ATProto.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @[email protected] @Gargron
Theoretically yes, but in practice basically all #atproto users depend on #bluesky and are affected by the block without having the technical expertise or willingness to circumvent it. On the other hand #fediverse users are distributed over many #mastodon instances making their own decisions.
#activitypub and #atproto both support decentralization, but in practice #mastodon is decentralized, #bluesky is centralized.
Theoretically yes, but in practice basically all #atproto users depend on #bluesky and are affected by the block without having the technical expertise or willingness to circumvent it. On the other hand #fediverse users are distributed over many #mastodon instances making their own decisions.
#activitypub and #atproto both support decentralization, but in practice #mastodon is decentralized, #bluesky is centralized.
S.R. Weaver@folkerschamel @cloudhunter.co.uk @mmasnick.bsky.social @Gargron
Good luck fining an instance owner either hosting their instance outside the US ( foreign countries have no obligation enforcing US laws ) and home hosters that disable registrations.
Also on Mastodon you dont have to belong to the same instance to connect. Its more like email in that way.
A third of MAU users are on US based servers, though.
Thankfully, more infrastructure outside of Bluesky - and the USA - is being set up by third parties :)
@cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
That's really nice.
But at the end the only thing which matters - to avoid situations with the @mississippifreepress.org - is how many users(!) are not at the mercy of #bluesky's decisions.
If this number is not far above 50% then it won't be decentralized in practice.
And btw, why not integrating #bluesky with the #fediverse? #bluesky could support #activitypub in addition to #atproto.
MathiasTCK@folkerschamel @cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
I mean, this very conversation happened over bsky.brid.gy right?
@mathiastck @cloudhunter.co.uk @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
Yes, this is encouraging, as I mentioned previously.
But unfortunately it is not as frictionless as it should be. For example, here on #mastodon I can find and follow only a small fraction of people on #bluesky who have enabled the bridge.
The reason it is like that is because a lot of people on Mastodon went up on an uproar when the bridge was originally opt-out rather than opt-in.
snarfed.org/2024-02-12_5...
github.com/snarfed/brid...
The reaction from most Bluesky uses was "huh, cool".
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
The bridge also seems to be not working reliable. For example, my post you were responding to was bridged to Bluesky, but at least at the moment my post before that https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115116088397042855 seems to be missing on Bluesky.
Wonder if Cory isn't bridged so that's why the reply didn't go across?
But your post is incorrect you linked to. An alt client would absolutely evade the block. Hell, even ublock scripts evade the block. It's enforced fully client-side.
gist.github.com/mary-ext/6e2...
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
When still using the #bluesky app view, then an alt client won't help. But aynway, my main point is that such claims are #decentralizationwashing in my view: Such technical debates are completely disconnected from the real world, because basically nobody is using such tools anyway, and in practice #bluesky centrally blocked Mississippi - as they are saying themselves in the original post.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
Interestingly the post https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115116427483310173 was bridged, but not the original reply https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115113652757352708. Funny.
Yes, as the reply was to someone who was not bridged.
Not sure of a nice way of handling that - if replies are sent across even if they're to someone not bridged it would look weird and be missing context.
Yes it will. The app view doesn't know your IP as everything is proxied through your PDS, and your PDS doesn't expose your IP.
If you're running a Bluesky PBC owned PDS then theoretically they could change that, but they haven't, and third party PDS's could easily choose not to comply.
@cloudhunter.co.uk @mathiastck @lwflouisa @[email protected] @Gargron
But you are now talking about combining your PDS with an alt client. Anyway, I agree of course that there are technical means of evading that block. But that's besides the point. What I consider as #decentralizationwashing is that while some arguments are technically true, in practice basically all MIssissippi users are blocked.
Mastodon Migration@mmasnick.bsky.social
@folkerschamel
Using caps and issuing admonishments does not make your argument stronger.
What he said is true. It may be a bad law, but the for all intents and purposes centralized Bluesky network is more vulnerable to it.
@[email protected] The law is bad, nobody said otherwise. But decentralized systems are supposed to be resilient. If the US makes a law banning all mentions of LGBT from social media, which sounds less unlikely by the minute, what will Bluesky do? All of your infrastructure is controlled by one US company…
Your final point is incorrect. Please don't spread misinfo about stuff like that.
The key point here matters @gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy: this law equally impacts both ActivityPub and ATproto instances. Using this law (and the fact that some Mastodon servers plan to not comply and risk liability) is not a statement regarding which network architecture is better.
It's just a statement over which systems are willing to risk ruinous liability over a bad law.
@[email protected] You keep repeating this claim, but this doesn't make it correct, see for example https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115080383013572736
Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊)@mmasnick.bsky.social @[email protected]
I continue to feel this is wrong.
*Anyone* can start a fediverse instance and be a publisher literally of 1. And yet they remain every bit as equal a participant in the overall global network.
Who today is successfully running 1-person ATProto infra and still enjoying all the features of Bluesky?
Jake 
@jaredwhite yeah, only governments and massive businesses have the money required to run their own ATproto PDS, relay, and appview.
Joe Alexander@jakeyounglol @jaredwhite is there a sign up page for these other services
@joe i don't know
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋@jakeyounglol @jaredwhite It costs something like $250 per month to run all three of these
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite
The question no one seems able to answer is who has a completely independent ATproto PDS, relay, and AppView where users can sign up?
If running all three of these is just $250 per month, why aren't there dozens of such independent AT Proto instances?
Seriously trying to understand why no one answers this question.
It seems the closest to this is currently Blacksky and they're still missing the AppView piece. Right?
cc: @folkerschamel
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel
The reason it is important to answer this question is because bold claims are being made without citing any evidence by people officially associated with Bluesky, like in this thread from earlier today involving Mike Masnick and @folkerschamel: https://mastodon.social/@folkerschamel/115080360729428884
If we are to have this conversation it should be with real facts and examples not aggressive hyperbolic assertions.
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel
If Blacksky is the best example of a scaled "independent" Bluesky (ATProto) instance. Then it becomes possible to talk about how independent it actually is (no AppView yet, the DID repository). It's then also possible to look at what percentage of users are "independent" of Bluesky PBC technology.
Leaving aside the issue of the DID database, it seems like right now there are no users fully independent, or at least very few. That's just a fact.
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel
And while rambling along here, it does not seem like we should exempt the DID database from scrutiny. The entire premise is "what if #Bluesky becomes evil?" This is the formulation of the argument by Jay Graber. If that happens then the owner of the DID database holds the keys to the castle. According to Kuba, they intend to transfer this resource to an independent "non-profit" (see https://mackuba.eu/2025/08/20/introduction-to-atproto/). What are they waiting for?
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel
So, trying to imagine what a truly decentralized Bluesky ATProto would look like, and it seems like it would need to have multiple independent PDSs, sure, but also multiple instances of the other major components capable of running at scale, such that should Bluesky "become evil" all these other folks could keep right on interacting together. Kind of a "cut the cord" test.
@mackuba @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel
And, the number of users on the non-Bluesky side of the cut the cord test would need to be significant, say at least 25% (or pick a number) of the total ATProto user base.
Finally, the DID has to be secured in a public non-profit lock box.
This seems like the bare minimum necessary for Bluesky to claim they are truly decentralized.
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel yeah, I'd like to see something like what you're describing eventually; not sure when and if we will get there
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel btw, there's this post by Bryan from Bluesky written some time ago, which implies that things like "multiple independent Relay services" and "multiple independent AppView services" are goals that they also care about: https://bnewbold.net/2024/atproto_progress/
@mackuba @mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite
And even this is only the technical perspective, which is the simple one.
Even if all these points are fulfilled, this does not mean decentralization in practice.
To demonstrate the absurdity of the purely technical argument, you could even argue cynically that #twitter has a "credible exit" because every user can export their tweets and following list, and import it into a not-yet-existing new system ...
@folkerschamel @mackuba @mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol As they say, the purpose of a system is what it does.
Until we actually see many examples of non-nerds engaging successfully in the ATmosphere without utilizing *any* infrastructure controlled in any way by Bluesky, then the claim it's a decentralized social networking protocol rings hollow.
@jaredwhite @folkerschamel @mackuba @jakeyounglol
Agreed. What is important from a user perspective is not technological potential or corporate aspirations, but ground truth current reality.
It is nice to know the potential may exist, but until it is realized it is just a possibility.
The thing that is most troubling about Bluesky and Mike Masnick's assertions is conflating this possibility with reality.
@mastodonmigration @jaredwhite @folkerschamel @jakeyounglol I would say users mostly don't care about things as much, and you need to explain to them why they are important at all, which is one of the reasons why more people came to Bluesky which keeps the decentralization aspects mostly hidden than Mastodon which has them front and center… Only some subset of more "decentralization conscious" users cares about either potential or current reality.
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel I'm thinking about writing another blog post specifically about the "status of decentralization", but probably not very soon
@mackuba @mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite
That's the point. Right now I don't see any indication that in the foreseeable future the majority of #atmosphere users will be not on the hook of #bluesky the company.
My fear is that #atproto is a kind of #decentralizationwashing of a VC-driven company - maybe and hopefully I'm wrong, but this is what I fear.
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel so, there's a few reasons:
- while PDS and relay are very easy to set up now, the AppView isn't - there isn't much documentation about it and I think it's missing some pieces like a part that indexes the existing posts created earlier; I think it took Futur who wrote a blog post about running AppView a few months to figure it out (though now he's blazed the trail a bit)
- while PDS and relay are very easy to set up now, the AppView isn't - there isn't much documentation about it and I think it's missing some pieces like a part that indexes the existing posts created earlier; I think it took Futur who wrote a blog post about running AppView a few months to figure it out (though now he's blazed the trail a bit)
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel - people realize there's quite a lot of responsibility involved in running those things - moderation of what's being posted and how it's used, possible Bad Content, regulations/laws etc. (just running an open PDS means you can have someone making spambots on it, it already happened)
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel - there doesn't seem to be enough people so far who care about this + want this + have the skill & time + are ready to deal with the above
- most people seem to be just fine with using Bluesky infrastructure + maybe own PDS for now
- most people seem to be just fine with using Bluesky infrastructure + maybe own PDS for now
@mastodonmigration @jakeyounglol @jaredwhite @folkerschamel I expect this to be changing in the coming months again as it was earlier this year, but I don't expect a large number of such fully independent stacks running soon because there just doesn't seem to be both demand and potential volunteers for it
$34/month doesn't seem like only massive businesses? PDSs are even cheaper. whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net...
I would suggest your mental model of this world is simply out of date.
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a...
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a...
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month | bryan newbold
This is an update to a Summer 2024 blog post. At the time, atproto relays required a cache of the full network on local disk to validate data structures. With the Sync v1.1 updates, relays don't need all that disk I/O. What impact does that have on hosting setup and operating costs? Turns out the d...
@mmasnick.bsky.social It's possible I've missed some recent protocol improvements.
Unfortunately that link doesn't clear up much for me. Again, which non-nerds out there are using "Bluesky" while being successfully (and inexpensively) hosted on all their own infra?
Dave Winer ☕️@jaredwhite @[email protected]
There’s only one atproto instance.