joriki
Mark Holtom (aka Kingbeard)
schratze@MarkHoltom how old is that post? Things have taken a turn for the worse in Germany since then. Now, patriotic Germans celebrate their country by lighting immigrant families' homes on fire and deporting them into active war zones
ℂ𝕖𝕝𝕖𝕤𝕥𝕖@world: /# 
@schratze @MarkHoltom Those aren't patriots, no matter how loudly they claim to be. They stole our flag, they abuse our constitution and parliament. Those are the thugs of the new nazi party and Putins' loyal trolls. The only thing they want is to destroy our country and divide (and conquer) us so they can build up a new reich. They've always built their power on the backs of the poor and helpless.
refraction 
@celeste_42bit @schratze but "patriotism" was always a cover for that kind of thing. there isn't a "good patriotism" that is redeemable and there never has been.
@elexia @schratze Well, a German judge who has also set up the Nürenberg trials against the Nazis has differentiated national patriotism (Flaggenpatriotismus) and constitutional patriotism (Verfassungspatriotismus). The first one is the classical stupid "being proud to be born somewhere" and the second is being proud at the lawful democratic foundation of your country. Since that is being proud of an actual achievement of the people and not just dumb "THIS IS MY TURF"-patriotism, I can kinda get behind that idea.
I am glad that Germany has a good legal foundation that is democratic and centered on justice and welfare.
Of course, there are issues with the interpretation and parties trying to push the boundaries of what you should be allowed to do, but there is at least a foundation we can build upon and fight for, and one we can use to argument against injustice.
Edit:
It doesn't end with being proud of what was achieved. Constitutional patriotism also includes constantly improving your countries situation based on shared values and being critical of your own government if there are things to be critical about. The conservatives plans to close our border to refugees is something to be critical about. And you can't just say "I'm proud of our democracy and rule of law" without saying "so I have to defend it against the fascists trying to undermine them"
Being a "real" patriot in Germany means being antifascist and a role model to the world. And we can't be a role model for other countries if we are doing the same xenophobic and anti-liberal things other countries are doing. That's not what we should stand for.
Scrappy Capy Distro@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze the people fighting for a better sense of justice are called terrorists by huge part of the democratic apparatus, and the enforcement arm of democracy, the police, are notoriously fascist and racist. How can you look at Germany's immigration policy and response to Palestinian solidarity and even pretend there's anything just about this state?
Liv the Crow@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
Disagree strongly!!
I dont want to put every kind of patriotism in the same bin. of cause there are differences, between rightwing nationalist who believe in german blood on one side. and say social democratic patriots who believe in the nation as a shared political and social system.
Disagree strongly!!
I dont want to put every kind of patriotism in the same bin. of cause there are differences, between rightwing nationalist who believe in german blood on one side. and say social democratic patriots who believe in the nation as a shared political and social system.
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
but apart of the differences there is also one thing that every kind of patriotism has in common: the patriot identifies with their nation and believes:
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
"the nation doing well is a good thing for me and thats why I should also participate in the national project."
For some that means paying taxes, for some that means contributing to the gdp, for some that means fighting for their country, for some that means getting rid of the pescy foreign elements in their glorious nation. (for example, immigrants, queer people, leftist, jews, you name it).
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
As I said, I dont say they are all equally evil. But they all make the same mistake: thinking that the nation is good for them.
As I said, I dont say they are all equally evil. But they all make the same mistake: thinking that the nation is good for them.
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
Because in reality the nation state is not good for them. It is setting up a capitalist system in which most of the people have little power over their lives, are forced to be in competition with eachother to make a living and get exploitet by capitalist.
So yeah, everything described above are different kinds of german nationalism but they are all bullshit for the same reason.
@livthecrow @elexia @schratze I totally get your criticism and I also think as a patriot you can and should be proud of having open borders and being a nation that supports its minorities and gives them a voice, and if it doesn't yet, see it as a patriotic action to get it to make the turn towards that better future. If we're not able to have a one-world-state, which is sadly not a future I can see, then that's the kind of pride we need to get into the mind of the masses, that at least our state that we can controll directly becomes a beacon of liberty for everyone who is oppressed. There is nothing stopping us from doing so. It's just elitist, rich assholes and power hungry dickheads having other plans. Those are the people we need to get out of their power positions.
But you don't need to necessarily be a patriot for that. You can also reject nations as a concept and fight for a utopia in which we all live in harmony and that's totally an idea we need as well. But in my humble opinion, that should be a fight for the acceptance in the minds of the people, not one to dismantle the state, because that will only lead to resistance and loss of acceptance and potentially to authoritarian groups using that to take over (violently). One side needs to reform the state and bring it on a progressive course and the other needs to create the progressive thought that's used as a basis for that change, so we can slowly but surely move forward.
But I also don't have a solution for the issues that we face right now, which are making it hard to get those reforms going.
Especially the anti-social media and internet disinformation campaigns are making it increasingly hard for the people around the world to cooperate, and they instead start fighting each other. And that poison to any liberal society is so effective, that reversing it's effect and battling it effectively is very hard.
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
mh I think we talk about different stuff. You talk about strategies and how to convince "masses" of this or that. I try to make a point about if patriotism is correct or wrong (not in a moral sense, but in a logical sense). and I come to the conclusion that its wrong.
For me thats a good enough reason to not trying to convince people of a certain kind of patriotism, because I dont want to convince people of stuff, that I think is wrong.
@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
And then it also doesnt matter to me if there is a good alternative in reach (for me that would be a world with no states). My position can be the correct position, but non-consequential at the same time, because the capitalist nation-state system is to well established and powerfull. At least this way I know what I'm up against and would never get the idea that imigrants and poor people are at fault for the shitty situations, capitalism puts me in.
And then it also doesnt matter to me if there is a good alternative in reach (for me that would be a world with no states). My position can be the correct position, but non-consequential at the same time, because the capitalist nation-state system is to well established and powerfull. At least this way I know what I'm up against and would never get the idea that imigrants and poor people are at fault for the shitty situations, capitalism puts me in.
@livthecrow @elexia @schratze What's the right thing to do is always different for different people.
You can set one goal, and the input to what path we should go ranges from "solve the crises caused by the rich and powerful" to "just kick out the Muslims"
culpaplex@livthecrow @celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
There may be a good kind of patriotism, but patriotism is never a good reason for anything by itself.
"[L]ove for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship."
@hp @celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze
no I think its allways wrong. see, the thread below my above post.
no I think its allways wrong. see, the thread below my above post.
@livthecrow Yes, I understand that you do but, with respect, do not find your thread as compelling as you probably think it is.
@hp do you have an argument?
@livthecrow I am not really here to argue with people, particularly not in a confrontational manner. If you are of inquisitive and self-critical disposition, I trust that you will find at least two premises in it that are not necessarily true or might not be universally shared. If you are not, the conversation will end up unpleasant for both of us.
@hp mh ok sure. i respect that you dont want to argue. I dont respect making vague and kinda passive aggressive statements and then not wanting to talk about them.
and tbh I dont understand why you make statements if you dont want to discuss them. but I guess thats your problem that doesn't need to concern me.
have a nice evening
Andreas K@celeste_42bit @elexia @schratze And the second one also includes the need to be critical when there is something to be critical about.
I remember the lovely days of the #BrExit discussions with the BrExit pseudo-eggheads, and they could not understand that I could be completely honest and critical of the EU/Austria, and still stand patriotic by these. Just because something is good does not mean it has no faults that one might want to improve on.
Charles ☭ says trans rights"Patriotic Frenchmen" - a phrase I have seen linked to building the world's tallest saxophone.
"Patriotic Americans" - a phrase I have seen linked to both apple pie and police violence.
"Patriotic Germans" - a phrase that makes everyone super nervous.
@schratze @MarkHoltom Sorry, they have been doing that in the 1990s too.
It just was not portrayed by the media as a mainstream more or less acceptable behaviour.
(Thank you privately owned media, and the ÖRR that seem to gone oddly Hugenberg-style in the past years.)
🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇮🇱 🐧 🥦@MarkHoltom Many Germans feel that being patriotic is joining the AFD party.
Andy FletcherThere are idiots in every country. In the UK it is Reform
@Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom The AfD is absolutely anti-patriotic, no matter what they claim. They want to destroy the country and exploit us, and they're doing it with the help of Putin and his friends.
bjb 
@celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom within the last year or two, hundreds of thousands of Germans took to the streets across the country every Sunday, rain or shine, for weeks, nay months, to protest the beginnings of the rise of the AfD.
Do not over-emphasize the influence of the AfD.
And to the Germans: I am very impressed, and hope you will keep it up. Other countries should do the same (especially calling Canada! Calling the States!)
@bjb @celeste_42bit @MarkHoltom That is good to hear. With no offense meant, many people in the world get anxious hearing about a right wing party gaining prominence in Germany. It is good many Germans turned out to protest them. I don't know what your news coverage is like, but perhaps someone can tell this Jens Bottiger that the "No Kings" protest held on the same day as trump's military was the largest protest in U.S. history.
Elosha@Methylcobalamin @celeste_42bit @bjb @MarkHoltom
Celeste is right. True German patriotism is being thankful to live in democracy by accident, fearing wars, supporting the society and environment, improving bonds to other countries, highlighting positive sides of history, with awesome artists and inventors, who serve as role models.
Friendship, art and skill, this is how a thing like „patriotism“ feels like, for most of us.
@bjb @celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom keep what up? The AfD are gaining in the poles. BSW broke from Die Linke and is open to collaboration with the AfD. The major political parties are racist and anti-arab as fuck. The (white/German) antifa are often Zionists or won't say shit about Palestine. Some of us might hold true to antifascist principles, but we're not holding back the tide
@scrappy_capy_distro @celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom
With the rise of AI bots, it is easy to think there is a wave of fascism drowning everything. Not everything you read is a real person's opinion.
And, it is important to keep resisting visibly, even if it seems pointless. It gives others hope and strength to resist.
With the rise of AI bots, it is easy to think there is a wave of fascism drowning everything. Not everything you read is a real person's opinion.
And, it is important to keep resisting visibly, even if it seems pointless. It gives others hope and strength to resist.
@scrappy_capy_distro @celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom
Re States "No Kings" protest: you are running a marathon, not a sprint. You will have to do those protests, just as big and bigger, many times over the course of the next years. I was very encouraged not only by the size of the German protests but by the persistence: every week, in all kinds of weather, for months. That is the minimum of what is required.
@bjb @scrappy_capy_distro @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom I wish we'd continue those. The scandal which started all of this should have been a wake-up call for everyone to protest until our government initiates the review process for banning those brown dipshits.
@celeste_42bit @bjb @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom what about the SPD and "wir müssen im grossen Stil abschieben"? Ban them too?
@scrappy_capy_distro @bjb @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom Naja, ist ne Scheiß Einstellung, aber nun mal nicht verfassungswidrig. Die müssen abgewählt werden. Davor muss man halt die Bevölkerung überzeugen und feste gegen den Mist protestieren.
@bjb @celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom the No Kings protests are neither a necessary nor sufficient action to avert fascism. A bunch of people standing around doesn't change anything unless they're willing to take direct action and act "violently," which so far they really aren't. German mass protests haven't stopped deportations, extraditions, or genocide. Mass protest on it's own is just spectacle without substance
@bjb @celeste_42bit @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom I'm talking about trends in voting in which map to people's beliefs as well as policy set by ruling parties. This represents beliefs of the masses as well as structural power. I don't care what some troll somewhere says. I know that the German state is fully behind a genocide and is still actively moving right with regards to its own borders and immigrants.
@scrappy_capy_distro @bjb @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom I've not seen any antifa not support Palestine yet, tbh.
And I agree with our current government doing bull without end. Border controls, anti-immigration policies, etc. are absolutely anti-EU and not what our country should stand for.
And with 20% voting for the AfD and about 30% agreeing with them, even though that's 🤮, there are still 70% of people opposing their shit. I'd like those 70% of voters, the silent majority, to finally be loud so we can dry out the brown swamps together.
I'm not saying "not all Germans" because I can only say that comfortably, when every other German is actively fighting the fascists. Sadly, it's still "not our problem," which is to the detriment of all minorities who are being targeted by the Brown Plague.
@celeste_42bit @bjb @Methylcobalamin @MarkHoltom maybe it's where you live but Zionist "antifa" attack anti-zionists, either other antifa or people who wear keffiyehs. Groups all over Germany make statements about "islamofascism." This is a problem going back until the 90s, or even longer depending on how you look at it. Rote Flora hung banners saying something like "there is no free world without Zionism." This is not isolated nor even just a small minority.
You are arguing for the idealized version of what a state claims it is, but they never have and never will be. States always require borders and a privileged in-group. They will always be built on patriotism and nationalism
Phil Johnston@MarkHoltom this is Canada too
@MarkHoltom Germans across the political spectrum demonize immigrants and there's a hard right swing. Literal Nazis are in parliament with 20% of people voting for them in the last election. German patriotism is intimately tied to rabid support for Israel which feeds into anti Arab hate. All patriotism is poison.
Jeroen van Bergen@scrappy_capy_distro @MarkHoltom Over here in The Netherlands it is not much better. Somehow the notion that most problems in society are caused by immigrants has stopped real debate. There are now two laws in the making that would fit in nicely with the ‘laws’ that were in place in 1940 - 1945. I feel shame and anger.
Sailor Anarres@MarkHoltom germans also love to attack immigrants and support imperialism and genocide. Germany isn't some utopia
Beige CatsWhoCode@MarkHoltom BWAHAHAHA this is what I love about Quora. It unfortunately got invaded by a bunch of MAGA-ites a year or two ago and they post questions like that.
tusooa 
西风 
@MarkHoltom
> less unfortunate citizens
but what about less unfortunate non-citizens? if your country is so great and you love it so much, you will want everyone to enjoy it right? not just citizens but also those who were born in those very underdeveloped places in the world where people make the least money for the same amount of work.
> less unfortunate citizens
but what about less unfortunate non-citizens? if your country is so great and you love it so much, you will want everyone to enjoy it right? not just citizens but also those who were born in those very underdeveloped places in the world where people make the least money for the same amount of work.
Stoneface Vimes@MarkHoltom yeah but it's just so much more easy and cheap to wave a flag and say thank you for your service than to actually do something practical.
canleaf08 ⌘ ✅@MarkHoltom They are patriot to their home town or soccer club. How dare you drive your Dortmund car with a Borussia scarf into Gelsenkirchen? Or see OFC fans as people when you have the « Eintracht Adler auf der Brust ».
David "Dave" TreloarDon't tell the yanks, they might realize they are selfish arse-holes, oh wait, they probably already do, and they just don't care.
No pity for you, NEXT.
no brain no pain@MarkHoltom As I’m German I can assure the assertion is false - must read „Some Germans are patriots“. Anyway, patriotism is nonsense. I did not choose where I’m born and I assume you didn’t either. Hence, those who are patriots haven’t yet understood that we have something in common: We’re human beings. That’s it, independent of where we are from.
Richard RatheOne could call it performative vs meaningful #Patriotism. 🙄
Also, the pickup truck #flag thing is #Nationalism which is more malignant.
The "Stars n' Bars" flag is #WhiteChristianNationalism in most cases.
This #cartoon by @jensorensen
sums it up better than 1000 words!
Patriotism: Pride in who you are
Nationalist: Pride in who you aren't
Patriotism: Learning from history
Nationalism: Re-inventing history
Raindrops and Roses@MarkHoltom @blogdiva Germans are self-critical - which is the best kind of patriotism there is.
Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC@MarkHoltom Ah, if only. The fascists are on the rise again here in Germany, they got a huge boost during the first year of the Covid pandemic, using antivax propaganda to recruit people and telling everybody that Covid was either a hoax or a harmless common cold, that all the home office work and cancelled events weren't used to keep people from spreading the virus but to keep the Germans from organising to rise up against the government.
Nicky🦨✌️@MarkHoltom i think USAian patriotism is a way to disguise lack of pride in one’s country especially for people who love their country despite what is being done in our name. I also think there’s an abuse factor involved—you know how some children will profusely express their love for a parent/guardian who is abusing them hoping whatever?
Passwordsarehard4@MarkHoltom as an American, I love my country when it deserves it and I change it when it doesn’t. I’m not currently in the “love my country” phase.
OrlayaIMH-German-O we have to get our “patriotism” back from right-wing idiots.
I am grateful and proud to live in a country with a free democratic basic order, statutory health insurance, free universities and more social things. Of course, it's not my personal achievement, but being part of it makes me happy.
Good things are always vulnerable and we must continue to make an effort to maintain all this or make it even better, also being brave enough to ban anti-constitutional parties
Anne Ominouspatriotism aside, the USA is a dog-eat-dog society where it is essentially, every person for themselves.
we don't have a strong sense of community.
we don't have a shared national identity.
we love to blame people for their problems.
and many think that the poor and downtrodden deserve their fate.
we are a very loose amalgamation of people, many of whom are constantly grasping for MORE at the expense of everyone else's well being.
Prof Prof Prof Dr Dr Sophia✔@MarkHoltom I am German. The question why Germans aren't patriotic, sounds like playing clueless on purpose. Don't ignore history.
Some of them are patriotic, some are careful, when it comes to patriotism. I think, that we all should be careful with it.
Some of them are patriotic, some are careful, when it comes to patriotism. I think, that we all should be careful with it.
sri@MarkHoltom well some Germans do fly the Confederate flag because some are right wing assholes.