Catbusliberal: omg how do we defeat Trumpism
socialist: *explains how*
liberal: that's not realistic, I meant without changing anything
Jaden Rubisco@ancient_catbus OMG LITERALLY THO, it continues to boggle my mind, the sheer number of people who are so scared of the direction the world is going BUT, when presented with a valid solution, just off-handedly dismiss it as "too naïve" or "too dreamy" 
Lile, wtf? that's like someone offering you a break at work and you turning it down for no other reason than you really really like breaks. It just does not compute. 
Wildduck@thedocruby @ancient_catbus Well, in Switzerland we refused a referendum asking for one more mandatory week of vacation per year 🤷
Kelly (who Cannot, Today)@Wildduck In the UK we managed to vote against fair voting. (Then we voted for all the other fashy shit later, but somehow that's the one that really sticks in my mind.)
Humphrey Archer@thedocruby
Um ... but that is just human nature. Only a small % of people like change, and most are very risk averse.
Maggie Pie@magpieluvseeds
Indeed.
But I also get just a little tired of people yelling "why don't liberals do [totally un-liberal thing], they should do [thing that liberals are not known for], and if they don't, then they are just shit people"
Like no, My Man, value liberals for being the nice sweet and overly considerate non-confrontational creatures they are, don't try force them to be progressives, leftists, or any other group who actually do they thing you want.
Elch@screwturn Citation needed, preferrably one that does not just project the current state of affairs into the past (and into the future)
@dimllychlyngarw
Citation needed to support the assertion that Openness to Experience and Change Resistance are things?
Surely not.
(1/3) @screwturn @dimllychlyngarw
*sigh...* I told myself I wouldn't engage with this...
This did not need to be an argument. First of all, in my OP I expressed a lack of understanding toward a behavior of others. @screwturn, on the assumption that you understand/empathize with that behavior: if you're trying to be constructive, then consider an honest explanation, instead of a "use common sense bro" approach. Or, better yet, notice that *im not actually asking a question* and don't engage.
(2/3) Second, @dimllychlyngarw, I empathize with your frustration, but your "SOURCE!?!?" reaction is disappointing, and only fans the flames here. Maybe instead, consider pointing out the naturalization fallacy in @screwturn's argument: Since we don't raise people in isolation for science, there's no way to distinguish between "natural" behaviors and "socialized" behaviors. Also, since I would obviously be an exception to the rule, intuition would suggest a more "socialized" interpretation.
(3/3) Key takeaway: social media does not have to be an argumentative place. We can coexist and learn from each other. I think we can agree that would be a good thing, yeah? But we have to put in the work, each and every one of us. I don't plan to engage further cause i have nothing more to ask or add, but do feel free to loop me in if you have a genuine question. I hope y'all can come to an understanding. Have a good day ❤️
@thedocruby
Indeed.
And part of that work is doing what we just did.
You expressed surprise (rhetorically)
I expressed surprise at your surprise
We now maybe have a mutual understanding that many people don't share my experience that what you described is VERY common in some domains
Maybe we walk away with slightly modified understanding of the world in which we live?
Indeed.
And part of that work is doing what we just did.
You expressed surprise (rhetorically)
I expressed surprise at your surprise
We now maybe have a mutual understanding that many people don't share my experience that what you described is VERY common in some domains
Maybe we walk away with slightly modified understanding of the world in which we live?
@thedocruby
I come from a "harm reduction" world and public health, so I am very familiar with the phenomenon that people will be faced with a critical risk with potentially fatal outcomes, and then avoid or actually undermine proven mitigations, but instead energetically pursue methods that will either do nothing of use, or actually make them WORSE.
So what you describe is not just unsurprising, but that as a smart and educated person you were surprised by it is a little
@dimllychlyngarw
Janis@ancient_catbus OK, so what needs to change, and why haven't all y'all gotten that bit done yet so your solutions can be implemented? if it's so realistic, it should be in progress, at least.
Cards, please.
cy@cy @ancient_catbus I'm about as extracted from Capital/-ism as an American can get. Doesn't help. Half of my neighbors tolerate being here temporarily as a stepping stone to an actual house, and the other half is so emotionally, and logistically needy they drive the other half away. Not one of them has the capacity to think beyond hard cash, and not one took me up on my offer to just go vote--I personally canvassed, offering a ride.
That particular job is not a good fit for me.
It's the best I can think to do. Surely everywhere can't be like that. If you can't do it you can't do it. Though I'd do stuff like potlucks and activities instead of to vote driving offers. If they like cash, start a buyer's club? It's true Thatcher's evil plan to enslave the world by getting us caring about houses seems to be really effective.
CC: @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
CC: @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
@cy @ancient_catbus All the association does together is National Night Out, & presumably vote. We sold all of them Thin Mints or Samoas (except for Wayne) in the way back. I'm dead tired of pulling teeth... while the people who have all theirs here are not looking to add events to their three jobs. there are a LOT of meh-paying jobs here, and these folks, if they're working (not (re)tired or disabled & disinterested), are seriously plugged into them.
Voting was my best shot at *something*.
National Night Out
Oh my god I'm so sorry xD
I'm dead tired of pulling teeth
You did exactly what I suggested, then! I don't know what to do if it doesn't work. If they can make the entire world work three jobs, we might just be doomed to extinction, the last generation of humanity. I hope we'd go extinct I mean, because 100% successful unopposed slavery forever is lots worse than simply not being born.
Best I can think for that kind of situation is finding the people who are terribly busy with many jobs, and teach them about the importance of malicious compliance, and secretly unionizing. It's silly to expect the people trapped inside the cage to go fetch the key though.
Oh my god I'm so sorry xD
I'm dead tired of pulling teeth
You did exactly what I suggested, then! I don't know what to do if it doesn't work. If they can make the entire world work three jobs, we might just be doomed to extinction, the last generation of humanity. I hope we'd go extinct I mean, because 100% successful unopposed slavery forever is lots worse than simply not being born.
Best I can think for that kind of situation is finding the people who are terribly busy with many jobs, and teach them about the importance of malicious compliance, and secretly unionizing. It's silly to expect the people trapped inside the cage to go fetch the key though.
Luci Scissors@ancient_catbus here’s the cards: you’re a troll and have zero genuine interest in an answer and you’re “jaq’ing off”
peptostate@janisf @ancient_catbus The most essential action citizens must take is to jump into people's Mastodon mentions and ask bullshit questions like, "what needs to change and why haven't all y'all gotten that bit done yet?"
binchicken@janisf ok i am trying to do this thing where i treat people like they actually want the answers to the questions they ask.
it's already happening, and has been the entire time. the mutual aid groups, the community organisations.
i don't know your area so i don't know where you should start specifically, but i have discovered a very convenient shortcut when it comes to the US. find the community based activists that the organisers of your nearest 50501 march wanted to call the police on. they are usually they ones who have a history of action that is effective, rather than performative.
also i have no idea what cards please means, sorry.
@janisf
where ostensible progressives in what is framed as a protest against fascist state violence try to use that very fascist state violence against parts of their own movement, that's a good place to find ideas that are disruptive enough to the status quo, that people who think that marching is enough will run the risk of having them disappeared to cicot rather than risk civility.
@janisf or, just look up food not bombs. that's fine too.
@thegarbagebird @ancient_catbus Yes, thank you! I did intend to ask in a way that inspired a good answer.
I've reached out to some organizations, but they're not tied into mutual aid groups, so I'm at a loss as to how to find them. I don't have much, but I do have a Chevy Bolt, and I'm happy to drive people around Minneapolis (without using Google or Apple Maps) because our public transit is weak to meh. I've marched, I keep my kid posted....
So, just living outside Capitalism?
Fortunately organizations don't have to be tied to mutual aid groups, to engage in helping out freely with no money exchanged. I dunno how to clue people in on that though, that doing more of that would be a good idea. Still, it's nice when the local garden club always brings more food than anyone can eat.
CC: @thegarbagebird@theblower.au @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
CC: @thegarbagebird@theblower.au @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
@cy i agree. the local free pantry always needs hygiene products and tinned goods. it might be a building with a staff, or there might be just a set of shelves lashed to a fence somewhere in your neighbourhood.
communities often have community gardens.
some shopping centres have noticeboards, there's often community events and organisations, signups for working bees and volunteer positions.
hell, even the box out the front of the house that says “free limes” is mutual aid.
@cy
there’s a guy at my work who takes all the stuff that's about to expire and makes a big batch of something with it, then leaves it in the cool room fridge with dates and dietary requirements.
@thegarbagebird @cy @ancient_catbus Well, I just found a beekeeper at the post office that doesn't need or use her wax. I plan to pick it up and start cleaning it tomorrow, I might even just make up the batch of lip (or whatever) balm while it's still warm. It's weird that no one wanted to buy it when I tried, but they rave come back for more if I've given them one and offer what they can, way more than I need. It's two entirely different crowds.
@cy @ancient_catbus @janisf oh wow that's a great idea! and it involves bees, which are great little fuzzy guys.
Man, you have no idea do you? Or you probably do, and I'm just reading you wrong. The Hillsboro community garden down 5th is privately owned by the local Catholic church, and is divided into private plots that people pay money to rent. Nobody's allowed to harvest from or work on each other's plots. I been hearing people talk about community gardens a lot lately and I'm like "What community gardens?" Grids of privately owned plots put up for rent are all I've ever known.
You mean how two people could have an uncomfortable conversation while standing in each of their privately rented plots?
Free food things are good, def. Neighbor down by the creek to the west put out a "free pears" box and I can't eat pears myself, but I saved my mother at least $3!
CC: @janisf@mstdn.social @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
You mean how two people could have an uncomfortable conversation while standing in each of their privately rented plots?
Free food things are good, def. Neighbor down by the creek to the west put out a "free pears" box and I can't eat pears myself, but I saved my mother at least $3!
CC: @janisf@mstdn.social @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
@cy yeah that's not a community garden. that's a business.
@cy @thegarbagebird @ancient_catbus They won't get clued in, not if they have to file something other than an individual tax return.
The orgs I touched seemed the sort to have mutual aid-type folks in them, without being pointedly aid organizations themselves, which also haven't connected me, come to think of it.
I'm not sure how mutual aid orgs are at all targeted at changing government, though, while govt are the folks who parse out the land, patrol it, and kick you off it.
@janisf even just showing up at local council meetings can be good, even if you don't believe in electoralism. informative, and lets you get an idea of who's out there in the community with enough energy to tolerate a meeting.
Most councils these days rule over hundreds of thousands or millions of people, who can't possibly form a community. (I certainly know the people of Hillsboro didn't support selling off our only common land to a private corporation, so they could fence it off and make us pay to access it.) It can still be good, but it's better if your local neighborhood association shows up together to this so-called "local" meeting, holding a giant sign saying "HILLSBOROS HANDS RUN WITH BLOOD" while singing the Russian National Anthem.
CC: @janisf@mstdn.social @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
CC: @janisf@mstdn.social @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
@cy that's fair enough, not a lot of people are interested. no profit motive. but that bit about the people showing up to the council meeting, all pissed off, with signs? that's good. you just found people who will take time out of their day to show up to a council meeting. sure, maybe they're not interested in electoralism. that's fine, sounds like you have a pretty captured council. well you've just found people willing to do a little civil disobedience and don't mind pissing off that council. find out who they are, see if they are down to build. lots of unused ground and public land.
hell, what with all the funding cuts, the council probably have fewer people to check on shit like that. they'll hopefully be focusing on parking fines and traffic enforcement, trying to make up the shortfall. @janisf @ancient_catbus
hell, what with all the funding cuts, the council probably have fewer people to check on shit like that. they'll hopefully be focusing on parking fines and traffic enforcement, trying to make up the shortfall. @janisf @ancient_catbus
@janisf
hey, don't underestimate how much easing the pressure of capitalism can help in changing the government, depending how you want to change government.
a community support network might mean you can afford to take a day off work to stand in line all day to vote, which can be really helpful in situations where voting has been made as difficult as possible to access especially for the more marginalised. that's good for democratic representation and electoralism, if that's how you want to change government.
a community support network might allow a specific communtity member to leverage that support into a political career, and take an active role in administrating policy, if that's how you want to change government.
a community support network might allow the facilitate the formation of a revolutionary cell, or affinity group, which could topple a regime, if that's how you want to change government.
@ancient_catbus
J3RN 
@janisf The Democratic Party is wholly beholden to corporate interests and billionaire donors. They claim this is "the only way to win now", while they become wealthy and lose races.
Alternatively, they *could* embrace broadly popular policies like taxing billionaires or Medicare for All (and a few have), but that path is, let's say, lacking in profit motive.
@j3rn So, you know that campaigns have to report any overages, along with strict transparency re: expenditures, right? there aren't even loopholes that allow any of them to be for-profit or hang on to cash. Where any profit goes is to for-profit contractors, not the party, not the candidate, not the candidate or any close friends or relatives.
Most Dems strongly support the rule of law, even run on it. You can call their offices and request a line-by-line.
@janisf My local rep, Joyce Beatty, was in hot water a few years ago because she and her husband sold property to a developer that her husband was on the zoning board for.
https://theintercept.com/2020/03/03/joyce-beatty-gentrified-her-way-into-political-trouble/
Most of them are smarter than Bob Menendez. Gold bars are a bit gauche.
@j3rn 1. that's so not partisan (similar situation with as MN Renaissance Festival properties, hard red), and 2. Beatty herself didn't do it, her husband did. And yes, politicians do get their peeps appointed and selected. I'm perfectly serious, go work for one. it'll do your career some good.
No matter where you go, that's how power works. Teachers' pets happen.They get good grades.
She should have known and reported, or intervened. I wouldn't have bc I didn't track my ex that closely.
@j3rn Not that my ex was criminal, but it's not a small part of why we split. It's also why I'm not terribly ambitious these days. No matter where I go, that's how power works, and I'm frankly disgusted with humanity.
There will be a huge rule-of-law push in 2026 by the truly smart Dems (there are a few). Those of us with our feet on the ground would be very wise to sink our teeth into it and hang onto it like a mongoose.
@j3rn So, run, or volunteer/work for a campaign. Get in there and see what it takes to fund it, where the money goes. your locals will be more than happy to have a strong coder. You'll get the knowledge of all the ins-&-outs...
... that you clearly don't have. please stop makin' shit up and blowin' it out your ass.
@ancient_catbus "Cards, please," is a poker reference. At the end of the game you either get everyone to fold (leave you with the pot), or you get called on your hand. That means you have to show that you have the cards that prove you weren't bluffing.
From where I sit, I'm not seeing much left-leaning change at all, much less to decipher where it would be trying to go. I'm not seeing leftward politicians running, or seeing any left-y messaging coming from from those in office... except two.
Gildilinie BLU-RAY(tm) EDITION@ancient_catbus liberal: omg how do we defeat Trumpism
socialist: *explains how*
liberal: no I mean by making white straight gen-z men feel like its okay to rape women
DoNotPunchDown
Love Me, I'm a Liberal
Kyle Taylor
★ Amy Star ★@ancient_catbus @TheArtGremblin accelerationist: "maybe we can defeat trumpism by giving him everything he wants, since when the world ends, there won't be any political ideologies at all"
FoolishOwl@ancient_catbus Liberals: "Where did all these police come from who are brutalizing people and ignoring due process?"
Socialists: "The police have always been like that. You hired more when we told you to defund them."
Liberals: "But without police, who would protect us from the black bloc?"
Catherine is not giving up.@foolishowl @ancient_catbus to be fair “defund the police” is one of the worst slogans anyone ever came up with. It’s like someone said let’s intentionally pick a word that 90% of the population will misinterpret and give conservatives ammo. Regulate would have worked because they could have been regulated almost out of existence by now.
@CatDragon @ancient_catbus
"The philosophy undergirding these reforms is that more rules will mean less violence. But police officers break rules all the time."
-- "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police
Because reform won’t happen.", by Mariame Kaba.
HeavenlyPossum@CatDragon @foolishowl @ancient_catbus
Agree that “defund” is bad messaging when “abolish” is so much better and clearer.
dethrone the police?
CC: @CatDragon@mastodon.world @foolishowl@social.coop @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
CC: @CatDragon@mastodon.world @foolishowl@social.coop @ancient_catbus@jorts.horse
Mr. E. Grey Seale
Feike"We want peace, they want mor€"
"Rich stay rich, pore stay pore"
