Phil (ascentale)Speaking of batteries, @InkySchwartz asks:
Q3. Is anyone concerned that E-bike batteries may become non replaceable?
#BikeNiteQ #BikeNite #BikeTooter #Cycling #MastoBikes cc @bikenite
@InkySchwartz @bikenite Sort of? I think the DRM/IP that might be attached to batteries might be awful like printer cartridges. But I guess inside, there isn't a giant difference between cells.
Ryan@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3 Speaking with the misplaced confidence of someone whose made a few DIY Li-ion batteries and watched a few YouTube videos on making e-bike batteries... unless there's some proprietary nonsense going on, an e-bike battery will be 12S3P or 4P circuit with a BMS (battery management system). So if the IC is still good one could, in theory, refurbish an e-bike battery for the cost of the cells and some solder.
AI6YR Ben@yantor3d @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite #BikeNite Oh no, not the horrors of subscription-based bicycle bateries 😱
Axel ⌨🐧🐪🚴😷 | R.I.P Natenom@ai6yr A2 follow-up: Subscription based EV batteries including GPS-enforced geographic restrictions based on where the batteries can be serviced is one of the reasons I dislike EVs from Renault and probably all Stellantis brands (at least Citroën). I hope that any e-bike company who tries that will go down immediately due to a lack of customers willing to buy such crap.
Nicovel0 🍉@xtaran @ai6yr @yantor3d @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite wait Renault and Stellantis cars are GPS restricted? Do you have a link/more info?
@Nicovel0: Regarding the GPS-based restrictions, I'm just sure about a single model of Citroën, the E-Mehari, which is already out of production and didn't last long. Source is my Citroën dealer/mechanic a few years ago. He said, the model just works in Europe, that the battery renting contract forbids you to use the car elsewhere, and he also mentioned something about that it won't work outside the allowed region. Renault is just known for only allowing battery rental even if you buy the car.
@xtaran that was true of the Renault Zoe, you could either rent or buy the battery because people were worried about them aging quickly. Now all their models are buy only at least here in the U.K.
I’m more concerned about how much data new cars collect and where they send it, there’s not enough details released and car reviewers have been showing exactly 0 interest in this.
I’m more concerned about how much data new cars collect and where they send it, there’s not enough details released and car reviewers have been showing exactly 0 interest in this.
David S@xtaran @ai6yr @yantor3d @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite I don't see this as an evil thing so long as its done true to the principles of a circular economy. A battery rental makes it in the interest of the manufacturer to make it as servicable as possible and extend the life so they can sweat the asset for as long as possible. The devil is in the detail of the terms and conditions of course, and more old companies will still approach this kind of thing with a "sell you more stuff" mindset
Megan Lynch (she/her)@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3. I think I worry a lot more about batteries and other parts becoming non-replaceable since cycle manufacture became more corporatized and less regulated. So while that affects batteries, that also affects other things.
But Ebike Marketplace really opens some options up, I think...well, if it weren't for tariffs. https://ebikemarketplace.com/
I do wish I weren't disabled so I could only need an acoustic bike. #BikeNite
gcvsa ⭐️🔰🇺🇸 🇵🇭@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite #BikeNite A3 Yes and no. The Li-ion cells in virtually all ebikes are commodity items. I am far less worried about the battery cells than I am about the proprietary electronics used to control battery charging and discharge/motor operation. There are no standards for these in the industry, and while they are not necessarily totally unreplaceable, doing so is very impractical for most people. It’s difficult to develop an aftermarket for these items.
@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite That being said, there's also a reason why I own a $1200 ebike with a pretty generic Chinese motor and controller, and not a $7000 ebike with a proprietary Bosch or Yamaha system.
If my #ebike becomes effectively #ewaste, it's a lot less of a loss to me. I am one month shy of 3 years riding this bike, have not really noticed any battery degradation, yet, but I ride infrequently and for short distances, mostly.
@ascentale But the actual battery cells in virtually all ebikes are standard 16850 or 21700 Li-ion cells that are made by the millions every month in factories all over Asia.
So long as the charging circuitry remains intact, the cells themselves can be desoldered and replaced; however, doing so must be done in complete sets, or there is a high risk of catastrophic failure, fire, and even explosion.
@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3 No, not when there are so many EVs around that you can ... borrow the li-ion cells from and refurbish a whole fleet of e-bikes 😉
(For legal reasons, this is a joke)
🏁⚡Omar Two Tone⚡🏁
@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
🤔 A3: I think something similar happens with smartphones or any electronic product; they already have a certain planned obsolescence about battery recharging, but at the same time I think that sooner or later more business niches will emerge where compatible batteries will gradually be dedicated to recycling and reselling. in the meantime, I just enjoy the ebike while it lasts, I will see what alternatives there are, as I usually do with other electronic products,
and perhaps batteries will continue to improve to even make a change of type, for example, from lithium to another material.
🤔 A3: I think something similar happens with smartphones or any electronic product; they already have a certain planned obsolescence about battery recharging, but at the same time I think that sooner or later more business niches will emerge where compatible batteries will gradually be dedicated to recycling and reselling. in the meantime, I just enjoy the ebike while it lasts, I will see what alternatives there are, as I usually do with other electronic products,
and perhaps batteries will continue to improve to even make a change of type, for example, from lithium to another material.
kimu@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite #BikeNite A3. Don't have an e-bike (yet), but the general non-standard and proprietary nature of e-bikes makes me a bit leery of their long term maintainability. Perhaps I'm asking too much for manufacturers to try to standardize things like batteries and connectors.
edd@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3. Yes and no, because ultimately they *can* be replaced one way or another. They have specs that no amount of custom connectors can defy. The main question is whether governments will keep it illegal because of DRM.
Marty Cormack@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
#BikeNite A3:
I've been in tech long enough to know that any new tech may have limited life or limited replacement options. Ebike batteries seem to fall into that category, so I would not be surprised. I wouldn't be happy if my ebike battery wasn't replaceable, but not surprised.
#BikeNite A3:
I've been in tech long enough to know that any new tech may have limited life or limited replacement options. Ebike batteries seem to fall into that category, so I would not be surprised. I wouldn't be happy if my ebike battery wasn't replaceable, but not surprised.
Artemesia@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
A4) not particularly, but then my battery is a very common industry form factor and the charge port is the very common barrel plug. Yeah, the connector to the bike is unique to that brand, but there exist aftermarket adapters for $20-25.
Stay away from brands with weird charge port setups. A buddy bought a last years model from a dealer, without charger, then realized the charger was $250 if you can even find one. If the Grin Satiator's (aftermarket charger) adapter set isn't compatible, that's a red flag.
I don't worry about DRM: you can't DRM an electrical connector, at least not in this country. Plus any brand pulling that shit would get crucified. This ain't John Deere.
Finally, you can always try replacing the cells in your battery, they're bog standard 18650 or 21XXX (forgot the exact num), same as used by electric cars. Getting the wiring right would be tricky, and the downside is that your battery is no longer UL listed (some HOAs require this). #bikenite
Ed W8EMV :mountain_bicyclist:@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
A3. Batteries are consumables, they will fail in some way at some point. The question is how long you can make them last and whether to replace or repair.
I hang out with ham radio folks who deal with batteries and battery management systems all the time, my guess is is that when my e-bike battery gives out it turns into donor cells for someone's radio project.
@w8emv @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite this is an important consideration - battery cells in an e-bike battery can be reused and repurposed. Don't just throw them away folks!
@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite #BikeNite A3: Never came to me, so I'm not too much concerned. In China there exist even electric cars where a roboter (looks like a car wash) can swap the batteries instead of waiting for them to recharge. Also extending the range of your e-bike by swapping in a 2nd battery seems to become more common. Then again there are e-bikes where the battery is hidden in a classic round steel tube. Probably tedious to exchange. Looking forward to USB-C charging e-bikes.
Cainmark Does Not Comply 🚲
NNN@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
A3) Yes! example: Bosch says they'll keep making batteries 5 years past last shipped bike. Thankfully Tern Shorthaul is still using the old batteries, so the clock isn't ticking yet.
But a bike like the GSD should last 20 years. It would be dumb to junk it because of batteries.
I know there are rebuilders, but also U/L listings and apartment owners. Heck, I can't even park a U/L listed bike outside on the grounds of the Xcel hockey rink (MN Frost & Wild)
@NNN @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite time to crowd fund a company to make a bike every 6 months to keep extending that date?
oheso@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite
A3. Are we talking about physically not capable of being removed and replaced, or proprietary and out of production? The first (like an iPhone or MacBook, to pull some examples completely at random out of the hat) would be horrible, because the batteries are very attractive targets for thieves.
Inky says "What the hell?!"@oheso @ascentale @bikenite The first one.
@InkySchwartz @ascentale @bikenite Yeah. It would be stupid (IMHO) for makers to do that because then thieves would just steal the whole bike and hack it apart to resell the battery. Which I guess makes it nearly certain?
technetium@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite Not really, my parents neighbor had an electric bike where the batteries are gone (literally). They gave it to them because she had no use for it anymore. I replaced the front wheel with motor, with a spare wheel I had lying around the day before yesterday. Now I've got a decent acoustic bike.
Moz@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3: no, because the Chinese manufacturers can't play that game so in the worst case I can always flip parts and make a franken-ebike out of whatever I have.
But since I Lego-level DIY these things out of bits bought on and expect that to continue, I can't see it ever happening.
It would annoy me a lot because I prefer to carry a bigger battery using LFP cells than the fire-in-a-can style ones others love so much.
@ascentale @bikenite A3. I'm glad to see there is much confidence that this is not possible for a variety of reasons. I am not so certain since I never thought cell phone batteries would be non replaceable I also never thought BBs would fail at less than 1000 miles.
And yet both are true.
LovesTha🥧@ascentale @InkySchwartz changing the bits that can enforce non replacement is always going to be plausible on a bike, so I'm not too worried
Siegfried.@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite A3. Currently I am not concerned as long as manufacturers know that current battery types don't like the cold. I usually take mine inside home during winter nights.
Sam Whited@ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite this is a big problem with batteries, motors, and all the other random custom parts e-bikes use that will be impossible to get when the company comes out with something new next year. Mostly I worry about the DRM on batteries and motors though, and the custom mounts for all these things (which are all patented so in theory they can sue you if you make a replacement motor and battery and try to re-use your frame).
dioramic_life@sam @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite Yup. Worse, the superfluous smart phone companion apps. All they have to do to force an upgrade is to stop updating the software.
@dioramic_life @sam @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite my electric bike is “dumb” but with a crank motor that I know Shimano doe not support anymore. If I ever get another one it will be either a conversion or a simple hub one that I can fix with generic parts. No apps, thank you very much.
@Nicovel0 @dioramic_life @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite that said, be careful with those conversion ones. Great that there's no DRM, but I've seen a handful that were outright dangerous, or just so poorly made that you're going to have to get another one every few months. Many (most?) shops won't work on conversion for liability reasons too, so make sure you can do everything else on the bike you'd need.
@sam @dioramic_life @ascentale @InkySchwartz @bikenite oh I would absolutely get something from a well known, regulation compliant company, not a no-name from Shein.