Mastodawn

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Welcome to today's thread - #CrossChannelRail Day 19 - 4 April - Paris - Charles de Gaulle - Marne la Vallée-Chessy - Lyon - Ravières

On the agenda today:
Stations
Charles de Gaulle
Marne-la-Vallée Chessy

Trains
Hitachi ETR 1000

Today's routes on the routes map: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#7/47.277/4.543

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

This morning‘s #CrossChannelRail news: HS1 is to offer financial incentives to new operator (also to Eurostar for new routes) in an effort to boost traffic https://www.ft.com/content/b0cb1698-d017-48dc-808d-c2d5ebf4bc8f

Cross-Channel rail owner to offer incentives for new operators

London St Pancras Highspeed, the former HS1, aims to attract more train companies and encourage extra Eurostar services

Financial Times

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And if you want a less clear but not paywalled version of the HS1 charges news, here’s The Guardian #CrossChannelRail https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/apr/04/cross-channel-train-services-to-be-cheaper-to-run-as-operator-cuts-charges

Cross-Channel train services to be cheaper to run as operator cuts charges

LSPH chief executive announces ‘groundbreaking proposal’ intended to grow international rail travel from the UK

The Guardian

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Had to do some non- #CrossChannelRail calls but now I’m on my way to ✈️ Charles de Gaulle Airport

Ticket is €13

I support airport surcharges but I’m not flying anywhere! 😀

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Here’s this morning‘s #CrossChannelRail intro video. Forgot to post it in the thread! https://peertube.netzbegruenung.de/w/jRB7w7NhpMcps9YkWa9or6

#CrossChannelRail live stream - 4/4/2025, 5:54:08 AM

PeerTube

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Why has the RER abandoned putting maps on its platforms? They’re useful! #CrossChannelRail

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Paris Nord RER #CrossChannelRail

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Handy visuals here #CrossChannelRail

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

What a mess. SNCF isn’t content with ticket barriers at CDG exiting the RER, so station a bunch of staff for a *further control* which makes exiting the escalators dangerous. Well done! FFS. 😡 #CrossChannelRail

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Whether you could run #CrossChannelRail from here I don’t know. What I do know is you shouldn’t try. This station - to board two TGVs - is already hell.

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Extra credit to this SNCF employee. She’s scanning tickets only for some other TGV, so happily sends passengers to the back of the long OUIGO queue instead. She could instead you know *help* and just scan them? It’s all SNCF Voyageurs!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Oh and we had some passenger profiling from Sureté Ferroviaire, happy to single out a young black guy for a bag check

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

This person covering their head, I presume asleep, has the right idea. Shield yourself from this mess - I get you!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And off OUIGO to Marne La Vallée Chessy

Thank goodness I’m not going all the way to Toulon on this!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

High speed train

Slow speed boarding

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

If I’ve counted it right they have 17 staff to check inOui and OUIGO tickets before passengers get to the platforms here at Marne La Vallée Chessy. Strikes me as… rather a lot!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

You can see how Marne La Vallée Chessy worked for #CrossChannelRail

Pic 1: the terminal
Pic 2: escalators secured with kind of fences, as in Lille
Pic 3: glass divider on the platform

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And here’s SNCF inviting harassment of passengers by telling them to display sensitive information

No, legally you DO NOT need to put a mobile number on your luggage!

How dare SNCF exceed what’s legally necessary in this publicity?

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

So my little tour of the eastern edges of Paris is done

RER back into the city now!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Arriving at Paris Gare de Lyon - the station for high speed trains to France‘s second and third cities Marseille and Lyon… and there are 4 trains in the next hour.

FOUR

That’s it.

The chronically under utilised capacity on French rail, off peak, makes me annoyed.

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And 2 of the 4 trains this hour at Paris Gare de Lyon are regional ones

So just 2 high speed departures

Compare that to Milano Centrale with 8 departures, or Frankfurt (Main) Hbf with a dozen

(Oh and DB doesn’t show Italo. So the Milano total will be higher still)

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And when SNCF goes whining to the Italian competition authority it can’t get the paths it wants in Italy, pause a moment: Italian high speed lines and stations are quite full, all day

By contrast SNCF Réseau can‘t refuse Trenitalia an off peak path in France when nothing else is going

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Trenitalia meanwhile needs 8 staff to board one 8 carriage Frecciarossa 🤷‍♂️

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

So you can board a full Frecciarossa in 11 minutes, from a terminus gate at Gare de Lyon, with staff checking tickets instead of using ticket barriers

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

However Frecciarossa seats are designed for short people. I’m 1m 83 tall, and the seat comes only to the base of my skull. Seat is comfortable until there though! 🙂

It’s smooth at 300km/h, not quite as good as a TGV though

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

There are some design choices made by Trenitalia for the interior that make little sense

Worst: luggage space. Most carriages have no rack for large bags at all! What were they thinking?

They don’t sell 2 seats per carriage as a temporary solution for this

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Thankfully the overhead racks are generous. Not quite as good as Talgo, but still very good.

The noise level on board is fine. The air quality good. Toilets and vestibules well designed. Gangways between carriages wide.

Put some luggage racks in, and replace linoleum floors with carpet and you’d have an excellent train.

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

France tangent: Bourgogne Franche Comté reduction cards have not been working on SNCF for a week or so, despite SNCF issuing them AFAIK

Now all holders have received an email telling them to… 🥁… use another SNCF website to book instead

Well done everyone!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Now on the final train home, Dijon to Nuits-sous-Ravières

It’s packed

But there *are seats* - but passengers put bags on them

I don’t know what’s more stupid: doing that to deny passengers a seat, or passengers refusing to ask passengers move bags?

I asked, got a grumpy 🤷‍♂️ but the passenger complied and I have a seat

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Spent the past couple of hours working on the data, as so many of my #CrossBorderRail plans changed in the past couple of days

The map I travelled is now more or less right: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#6/48.973/2.845

But all the train assessments will follow sometime, tomorrow if I have the energy!

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

And just one more station of #CrossBorderRail to go... Montbard now, 10 mins to Nuits-sous-Ravières and then 2km bike home

And then this monster will no doubt be sat on my knee within 2 minutes of my arrival!

Thanks for following all of this crazy project this past three weeks. I need a bit of a rest, but there will be a lot more soon!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

SNCF: bags without a label are a big danger! Announce! Fine! Act!

Also SNCF: passenger blocking doors (an escape route) with 4 bags. 🤷‍♂️

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

Yep. Home

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

OK, the missing assessments!

#CrossChannelRail Train 66 of 72
RER D
09:31 Paris Gare de Lyon - Paris Nord 09:41
SNCF for Île-de-France Mobilités

Train type: ANF, CIMT, GEC Alsthom Z 20500 EMU, 2x 5 double deck carriages
⚡️ (1.5kV dc)
🚲: ✅ (off peak)
🦽: ✅ (ramp on platform)
🛜: ⛔️
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: 😐 (difficult design - hard to move with larger bags in double deck carriages)️
🧽: 🙂

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

RER D
09:31 Paris Gare de Lyon - Paris Nord 09:41

Distance: 5.3km
Average speed: 32km/h

2 stops:
Chatelet les Halles
Paris Gare du Nord

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#14/48.8620/2.3599

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

#CrossChannelRail Train 67 of 72
RER B
09:57 Paris Nord - Aéroport Charles de Gaulle 2 10:26
RATP & SNCF for Île-de-France Mobilités

Train type: Alsthom, Société Franco-Belge MI 79 EMU, 2x 4 carriages
⚡️ (1.5kV dc, then 25kV ac)
🚲: ✅ (off peak)
🦽: ✅ (ramp on platform)
🛜: ⛔️
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: 😐 (not handy with large bags)️
🧽: 🙂

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

RER B
09:57 Paris Nord - Aéroport Charles de Gaulle 2 10:26

Distance: 28.4km
Average speed: 59km/h

4 stops:
La Plaine - Stade de France
Aulnay sous Bois
Parc des Expositions
Aéroport Charles de Gaulle 1

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#13/48.9454/2.4612

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

#CrossChannelRail Train 68 of 72
OGV 7897
11:00 Charles de Gaulle - Marne-la-Vallée Chessy 11:27
SNCF Voyageurs

Train type: Alstom TGV Duplex, 2x 8 short double deck carriages
⚡️ (25kV ac)
🚲: ⛔️
🦽: ✅
🛜: ✅ (free with some tickets, others have to pay)
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: ☹️ (Duplex, poor design)
🧽: 😐 (grimy and worn)

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

OGV 7897
11:00 Charles de Gaulle - Marne-la-Vallée Chessy 11:27

Distance: 23.9km
Average speed: 53km/h

1 stops:
Marne-la-Vallée Chessy

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#12/48.9363/2.6645

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

#CrossChannelRail Train 69 of 72
RER A
11:43 Marne-la-Vallée Chessy - Paris Gare de Lyon 12:20
RATP & SNCF for Île-de-France Mobilités

Train type: Alstom Bombardier Mi09 XTrapolis EMU, 2x 5 double deck carriages
⚡️ (1.5kV dc)
🚲: ✅ (off peak)
🦽: ✅ (ramp on platform)
🛜: ⛔️
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: 🙂 (three door double deck design is OK)️
🧽: 🙂

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

RER A
11:43 Marne-la-Vallée Chessy - Paris Gare de Lyon 12:20

Distance: 33.9km
Average speed: 55km/h

12 stops:
Val d'Europe
Bussy-Saint-Georges
Torcy
Lognes
Noisiel
Noisy Champs
Noisy-le-Grand Mont d'Est
Bry-sur-Marne train station
Neuilly-Plaisance
Val de Fontenay
Vincennes
Nation

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#12/48.8812/2.5560

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

#CrossChannelRail Train 70 of 72
FR 6651
14:14 Paris Gare de Lyon - Lyon Part Dieu 16:09
Trenitalia

Train type: Hitachi Frecciarossa 1000 EMU, 8 carriages
⚡️ (1.5kV dc, then 25kV ac, then 1.5kV dc)
🚲: ⛔️ (only disassembled or folded bikes allowed)
🦽: ✅ (lift on platform)
🛜: ✅
🍽️: ✅
🧳: ☹️ (ridiculous - only two racks for larger bags in 5 carriages! And some seats used as luggage racks. Overhead racks are good however)
🧽: 🙂

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

FR 6651
14:14 Paris Gare de Lyon - Lyon Part Dieu 16:09

Distance: 429.4km
Average speed: 224km/h

1 stops:
Lyon Part Dieu

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#8/47.325/3.633

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

#CrossChannelRail Train 71 of 72
TER 17812
16:16 Lyon Part Dieu - Dijon Ville 18:17
SNCF for TER AURA

Train type: GEC-Alstom BB22200 locomotive, 7 Corail carriages, driving control car
⚡️ (1.5kV dc)
🚲: ✅
🦽: ✅ (ramp on platform)
🛜: ⛔️
🍽️: ⛔️
🧳: 😐 (narrow and high doors)️
🧽: 😐 (grimy outside)

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

TER 17812
16:16 Lyon Part Dieu - Dijon Ville 18:17

Distance: 193.3km
Average speed: 96km/h

9 stops:
St-Germain-au-Mont-dOr
Villefranche-s-Saone
Belleville-sur-Saone
Mâcon Ville
Tournus
Chalon sur Saône
Chagny
Beaune
Dijon Ville

This train, mapped: https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/crosschannelrail-2025_1148540#9/46.5474/4.8729

#CrossChannelRail 2025

Draft route for Jon Worth's #CrossChannelRail project in spring 2025. Dates for each leg of the trip are shown on each layer. Route colours alternate each day - yellows one day, purples the next, each train with a slightly different shade. Pins in the map show the locations to be visited.

uMap

Jos Dingjan Apr 7, 2025

@jon Nez cassé!

(I have a soft spot for the NS1600/1700/1800s)

Siège avec vue Apr 7, 2025

@jon You suffer for your art. #Ouigo #martyr

Jon Worth Apr 7, 2025

@siegeavecvue It was only 10 minutes or so. Could have been worse! The alternative was the Disney shuttle bus!

Walter van Holst Apr 4, 2025

@jon Quite the unit!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@whvholst that’s a back leg there not a fat stomach!

Walter van Holst Apr 4, 2025

@jon I was not fat shaming your cat!

Orange Menace Apr 4, 2025

@jon home is where the 🐈 is

Sven A. Schmidt Apr 4, 2025

@jon Awww 🥰

Lukas 🎢🇨🇭Apr 4, 2025

@jon meow! 😻

Niels J Apr 4, 2025

@jon
Good job!

Adam Apr 4, 2025

@jon home is where you fuss your cat.

SaareMartha Apr 5, 2025

@jon
Clearly she was glad to see you

Maartje Apr 4, 2025

@jon if a german zugchef saw that the train would be required to be cancelled….

Liminal witch 🧙‍♀️ Sarah Apr 4, 2025

@jon That's not the biggest stupidity I've seen on France bound train.

I have retractable utility knife in my backpack. In Barcelona they confiscated all replacement blades and left me with the one in the knife.

Martin Gleadow Apr 4, 2025

@jon as long as they are overzealously labelled they are perfectly safe

Cycling on Rails Apr 4, 2025

@jon But you need to choose Jon, bags on seats or bags on doors!

Luggage racks? Which luggage racks? We don't do those in our SNCF trains! Pas mal, non? C'est français! 🇨🇵

And if you want more luggage space, pray we don't alter the deal* further!

*Don't forget to pack lightly: https://www.sncf-voyageurs.com/en/travel-with-us/plan-your-journey/luggage-on-bpard/

Piet van den Bosch Apr 4, 2025

@jon a treat thx

Rich Apr 4, 2025

@jon well done, v interesting to follow, thanks.

Peter Brown Apr 4, 2025

@jon I suppose the alternative is to sit on their bag

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@peterbrown Massive racks, and a multi use area. Stack the bags there!

This isn't the UK, the trains have proper luggage space!

gehsteiger Apr 4, 2025

@jon
I once heard the following announcement on the DB ICE: "Please remove your bags from the seats next to you. Your fellow passengers are not called Gucci or Louis Vuitton."

JTW Apr 4, 2025

@jon but were all the bags labelled?

(((Klefstadmyr)))Apr 5, 2025

@jon Tell them we Norwegians own the copyright of such behavior. It's part of our heritage.

SaareMartha Apr 5, 2025

@jon
Bravo! The right thing to do IMO

Kiudecan Apr 4, 2025

@12train est ce quelque-chose sur lequel les plateforme d'achat 12train a eu un avantage ?

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@kiudecan @12train I imagine it’s some wider API issue.

Jean-Baptiste 1.2.Train Apr 4, 2025

@kiudecan @12train Same issue here.

orangerkater Apr 4, 2025

@jon this is so absurd. This is the same France that recognized the importance of digitalisation and provides FTTH no matter how remote a home is.

Cycling on Rails Apr 4, 2025

@jon Ah ah! So they made the implicit policy of using empty seats as storage (https://mastodon.social/@cycling_on_rails/113175605559930724) official! Or is it only Trenitalia France?

If I remember well, in Italy they have a "second class premium" with a luggage rack at each end of the carriage as the only visible difference to regular (see linked toot). You might want to walk around the train to check it out.

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@cycling_on_rails 1 carriage has it. The 2nd class carriage next to the cafe (carriage 4 I think)

Cycling on Rails Apr 4, 2025

@jon Yes that's the one! Looks like the "premium" class doesn't exist in France, only in Italy.

ilmari Apr 4, 2025

@jon which app is that?

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@ilmari phyphox

ilmari Apr 4, 2025

@jon cool, it's even on f-droid!

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@ilmari the slightly annoying thing: making sense of the readings between train types isn’t easy! Not the app‘s fault though!

Lars Fosdal Apr 4, 2025

@jon Which app is that?

Jon Worth Apr 4, 2025

@LarsFosdal phyphox