Mastodawn

Dominion Oct 31, 2024

If an employer ever asks you to resign, tell them "no".

There is no benefit to resigning unless you have another job lined up already.

Make them fire you. Get your unemployment benefits. Make sure you are legally protected in case of malfeasance. Resigning undermines all of that.

This message brought to you by AWS telling workers to return to office 5-days-a-week by commuting or relocating, or they should resign.

Again, the answer is "no, you'll have to fire me."

EDIT: To clarify, in most areas "fired" and "let go" are not legally meaningful terms and can be used interchangeably. The important term is "for cause" or not. So don't commit misconduct to get fired. Poor job performance is typically not a "for cause" reason, nor is failure to accept changes like RTO

Yaoi Box Balloon Oct 30, 2024

@neatchee This is the rule in most EU countries. If you resign yourself, you're on your own for at least a couple months. If you're fired, you're still financially ok, even if it is entirely your fault.

I suspect maybe something similar across the Anglosphere? No expert but only suspect.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@monsoonrains in the US you're definitely not financially okay if fired, but you do get certain protections, like unemployment benefits (unless fired for misconduct). There are also some cases where you can resign and still qualify if you can effectively show that you were forced to resign to avoid worse consequences (harassment, etc)

Sirena the Miqo’te Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @monsoonrains I remember back when I was much younger, our manager gradually worked her way through firing us all to bring in her own people, but had first cut our hours back. The unemployment benefits ended up being more than my regular pay had been recently.

And yeah she REALLY wanted me to quit. But I'm very stubborn.

Sirena the Miqo’te Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @monsoonrains "You can quit now, or I'll fire you later, but you aren't going to make it through the Summer. "

"Okay, well I'll keep at it"

Yaoi Box Balloon Oct 31, 2024

@aceattveg @neatchee Damn fucking straight.

Milk it. Moo.

Texan Tally Nov 3, 2024

@monsoonrains @neatchee @aceattveg In my head I'd probably have that famous boxing announcer going "Let's get ready to rumble!"
Or more quietly, I'd probably be blinking with a barely there smile on my face going "challenge accepted" in my head. When you know someone wants you out but can't do anything about it yet, it does seem to kinda give you that burst of XP to keep fighting, doesn't it? it's just the principle of the thing. But this is good to remember.

If you resign, all unemployment agencies will tell you down here (Texas) is "get your job back." Their job is to ensure you avoid having to collect unemployment in the first place, and when they can't prevent that, they make you apply like crazy for jobs and basically take the first one willing to have you. I used to substitute teach and when I told them that, they were like "apply to school districts around here as a sub. Better than nothing." But I would only be able to do 2 days a week because of the distance to my stable tutoring job & it would end come summer and I'd be in the same position, I needed something that would be steady and let me pay the bills. They didn't care, so I went off on my own. A month later, I got a fast-food job at least that worked with my schedule.

Yaoi Box Balloon Oct 31, 2024

@aceattveg @neatchee Wow.

It's amazing how management needs to very carefully considering the rules/implications to get rid of people!

Germanys got very good worker protection laws. Yet people try very carefully to oust people and make it seem like they resigned. And younger workers tend to just go with it.

I've sued (and won) my last two employers. But despite all the protections, it was stressful. Now I understand why people don't just whip out their rights/protections. It's tough.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@monsoonrains @aceattveg yeah I've gone after an employer in the US for wrongful termination and got a reasonable settlement, and it was still really stressful. Even had my lawyer on contingency because the case was so strong but decided to settle for the first reasonable offer just to get it over with while still being made whole.

Yaoi Box Balloon Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @aceattveg Sounds roughly like the German variation.

You basically strike for a conciliatory hearing settlement first and usually get that. Going to full court is rare.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Oct 31, 2024

@monsoonrains @neatchee @aceattveg In the UK it's an s111A agreement, assuming the employer isn't stupid enough to let it actually get as far as a tribunal.

But if the employer says "I'll pay you £xxk to resign" and that's more than you'd have got under the s111A (maybe the employer wants to avoid hassle and avoid having to pay your legal costs) then why not take it? Take advice from *someone* first, though, other than some random bod on the internet.

solo Oct 31, 2024

@monsoonrains @aceattveg @neatchee semi related: saw this one video of this guy who what he did was

get job at [company]
report safety issues to OSHA
get fired for it
sue for wrongful termination

& he made more than he would have, had he actually worked at the job(s) without being fired & dealing with any of this

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@solonovamax @monsoonrains @aceattveg Hah! That's amazing. Not the worst idea I've heard if you have the capital to retain the lawyer

Yaoi Box Balloon Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @solonovamax @aceattveg Ohh, also what's handy in a lot of euro countries: you can get legal insurance.

Earthshine --> moved Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @[email protected] that depends on the state. Worker protections in some states are virtually nonexistent. In any case, it's so almost always better to be fired than resign. Unemployment benefits, in particular, often hinge on the termination being involuntary. I've been burned by that one before myself.

Karen Bruner Oct 31, 2024

@earthshine @neatchee if you're going to get fired, get fired in California. They have some of the strongest worker protection laws and social services.

Earthshine --> moved Oct 31, 2024

@fuzzykb @neatchee True LPT

Cecelia Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @monsoonrains Wish I’d known about this a couple decades ago. 🙃

LisPi Nov 1, 2024

@monsoonrains @neatchee Depends on the country. Some of them let you get unemployment immediately without any nonsense. In that case it really doesn't matter.

In some anything short of getting fired with cause has no negative impact on unemployment.

四 Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee I’ve learnt that fired isn’t the same as let go. Recommend avoiding fire/fired at all costs.

Other than that absolutely correct. Never ever do what they tell you, HR has never been on your side (that’s why we need unions).

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@yon they're not really legal terms either way; it's either "for cause" or not. But I get what you mean and you're absolutely correct. Never get yourself fired on purpose as a consequence of your action or inaction being considered misconduct :D

四 Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee Unemployed used those terms here:( I wasn’t fired, but as a foreigner speaking English as a second language I’m not always used to getting things 100% correct.

It’s all very insidious I’d say, everything is designed to screw you over:(

Stoneface Vimes Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee yes. Always was, over here. As long as you weren't fired for misconduct or something like that. Resignation is classed as voluntary unemployment so no assistance.

@neatchee this is actually what I did when my company forced RTO - legally they had to "let me go unless I agree to the new conditions" and I didn't so they just exempted me from the RTO requirements

Jake in the desert Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee 🔥🔥 THIS!!

Mab_813 Oct 31, 2024

For everyone who's employed in Austria: Call the AK (Arbeiterkammer) in cases like this! You are a member of the AK anyway and can consult them for free.

Berdandy Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee @SoloRunStudio yes, AND… in Canada at least, there’s such a thing as “constructive dismissal” where if an employer makes major changes in your job, it’s possible to reject the changes, resign, and get full severance.

Khleedril Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee Hey people, just remember while you read through this thread that you are the most precious thing here; look after yourself first, and if that means just walking away from trouble then walk away and tell yourself you have found peace within.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@khleedril this is so true. Always put your health and safety first!

I will say, however, that it can be really cathartic to laugh internally at the suckers who don't realize they're literally paying you to do nothing while you wait to get let go. Let 'em talk shit and assign you crappy work tasks you're not gonna actually put effort into anyway. :D

(That all assumes you're capable of that approach; if you're not that's ok)

Morton Fox Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee That was my approach regarding my previous job.

Even though I was thinking of leaving, there wasn't any upside to resigning unless I already had another job lined up. Plus, if I got laid off, I could take advantage of extended unemployment benefits, which were introduced around that time.

genderqueer_flag

@neatchee I fell foul of this a great many years ago. I was terrible at my job and was miserable. I had a meeting about it and it was suggested that I hand my notice in. Being young and naive I didn't realise what they were doing.

I also misunderstood, because I thought the outcome was for me to consider it, but the next Monday I was asked where my written notice was.

Now, it was not remotely okay what they did morally speaking. However looking back I despised that job, so I don't regret going along with it.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@Bard yeah, a lot of businesses are real dirty about this kind of stuff :( This is why we gotta share what we know!

Aurani Casts Fireball Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee people aren't eligible for EI in Canada if they're fired either.

They have to be laid off or let go.

It's assumed a fired person was at fault, the same as if they resigned.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@Aurani clarified elsewhere, but typically (at least in the US) "fired" and "let go" aren't legally meaningful terms. The legal term is "for cause". Basically, was there misconduct involved. Even if you were simply underperforming and fired because you weren't meeting targets, that's still not "for cause".

Make sure you consult your local unemployment office or a lawyer for the specifics in your jurisdiction!

Aurani Casts Fireball Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee in my experience, fired is expected to mean terminated with cause; let go is terminated without cause.

WellWornVet 🇨🇦Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee Be careful with this kind of advice. Refusal to RTO is likely a lawful reason for dismissal of the employee. It is management's right to determine the place of work and hours of work.. See this website:

https://stlawyers.ca/blog-news/return-to-office-ontario/#:~:text=Employers%20might%20threaten%20termination%20or,much%20like%20an%20employee%20resignation.

Return to Office in Ontario: Employee Rights - Samfiru Tumarkin LLP

Learn about your rights as an employee if your employer ends your work from home mandate.

Samfiru Tumarkin LLP

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@nelsonstreetlad That very same article you linked says...

Established Remote Work: If remote work was originally or has since become an accepted part of your role, your employer can’t enforce an office return without risking a constructive dismissal claim.

In general, you can't employ someone under a specific set of expectations that are clearly communicated, and then arbitrarily change the expectations without consequence.

Additionally, your link is specific to Ontario.

As with all legal matters, the best move is to speak with an authority on the matter, like your local unemployment office or a lawyer

WellWornVet 🇨🇦Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee Quite so. Except for employees of the fed govt and Crown Corporations, and of federally regulated business, employees are governed by provincial labour law, common law, and contracted terms for individuals & unions. Where, eg, work from home was permitted or encouraged due to the pandemic & not contracted in writing or orally for an indefinite term, employees must work where the employer reasonably directs or be dismissed for cause. That is my understanding of the situation today.

cathos Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee I was thinking about this the other day - about how I was forcibly demoted at a company, and bullied into signing documents to accept a decrease in wages. And how that felt so wrong, but I couldn't go research it because my manager boxed me in and wouldn't let me leave the conference room. And how I've also quit so many times when places tried to force me to do more (and work faster) than I was able to. Never again.

cathos Oct 31, 2024

@neatchee Of course, then I ended up doing contract work, which the companies like because they can let you go at any time with very little paperwork or financial burden.

neatchee Oct 31, 2024

@cathos Yup. They just have to pay the company you're contracted to an early termination fee on the contract the two companies made. It's so shady.

Damn right never again. Stand up for your rights. What that company did to you is definitely not legal (at least in most developed countries).

When an employer offered me a paltry $500 severance I told them no and they told me "okay, give us the contract back." I said "absolutely not, this is mine now, I will not be returning it and instead keeping it as evidence of your efforts to screw me over". They didn't like that so they got the 7ft tall, 300lb QA tester to come stand in the room to intimidate me. I calmly told them "you just made a really big mistake. I'll be collecting my things and leaving now." Then I lawyered up

Don't roll over <3

Rob\Viewdata UK Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee
I once successfully claimed Unfair Dismissal for being told "I think it's time you looked for another job".

the notorious gzt Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee policies like RTO may be considered "constructive dismissal" (a good term for people in this situation to google)

Brian MacDonald Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee Another edge case: Microsoft used to lay somebody off, then hire them back the next day to do the same job with no benefits. The government put a stop to that.

In publishing (and probably other industries), it's common to leave your job to freelance, and your former employer is your first client, often the same projects. Because of the Microsoft rule, you can only freelance if you resign, not if you're laid off.

I once had to quit before being downsized, so I could keep my projects.

John Carlsen 🇺🇸🇳🇱🇪🇺Nov 1, 2024

Note that (at least in California), workers don't need to accept changes to their employment agreement.

If a return-to-office (RTO) mandate changes yours and you don't agree with it, leaving your job isn't a resignation but rather "constructive termination".

(Though I have degrees in business, I'm not a lawyer and don't intend this as legal advice.)

#ResignOrBeTerminated #ReturnToOffice #RTO #ConstructiveTermination

London Eastfield 🇵🇸Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee This is good news. The less people working for AWS, the better.

Fuck Bezos.

Log 🪵Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee Significant change in working conditions is supporting evidence for constructive dismissal anyway, even if they don't outright fire you.

Liz Miller Nov 1, 2024

@neatchee thank you for this post

KChernecky For Democracy Nov 7, 2024

@neatchee red states likely don't offer any protection