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Eugen RochkoMastodon is financed by crowdfunding instead of venture capital not because we don't know that venture capital exists, not because we don't have bills to pay, and not because venture capital isn't willing to give money to new social media platforms. VCs don't want a sustainable business, they want a big exit. Every VC-backed business is on a timer to deliver or die.
Wayne Myers@Gargron To deliver *money*, and *not* the actual thing it was supposed to deliver. They should call it 'PC', not 'VC'. Poisoned Chalice.
Roadskater, Ph.D.@conniptions @Gargron VC is either Vulture Capital, or if you're an old Goldman-Sachs fan, Vampire Capital.
Dan Wolfe@Gargron I appreciate with this, so much that I just signed up for mastodon’s patreon. ❤️
Lazarou Monkey Terror 🚀💙🌈@Gargron I'm tired of the Capitalism, I'm staying here on Mastodon with the Humans, for all their faults.
FediThing 🏳️🌈Exactly 💯
VC money means enshittification.
Thank you for not going down that route 🙏
EDIT: In case anyone is wondering why Eugen is posting on this topic, have a look here https://social.growyourown.services/@FediTips/113364985280012085
Fedi.Tips (@FediTips@social.growyourown.services)
This is why I have been trying to warn about #BlueSky. BlueSky has just been partially bought by a cryptocurrency company "Blockchain Capital" and appointed a blockchain / cryptocurrency expert to their board: https://bsky.social/about/blog/10-24-2024-series-a The board member is a bitcoin researcher involved with NFT analytics. BlueSky describe the tie-up with Blockchain Capital as a "natural partnership" and says the blockchain company has "a uniquely deep understanding of our decentralized foundation". (via @jwz@mastodon.social)
jan Anja();@Gargron having something like Proudhon's Bank of the People would be great
Jon Lindemann@Gargron BlueSky was cool for a minute. Then I saw the venture capital announcement and was like, welp, so much for that. VC capital always has a price. They want their return.
Axomamma@mrdiamondj How did you not see it coming given who founded it?
@Axomamma Sometimes I like to pretend that things will turn out okay
@mrdiamondj They didn't, and they won't.
Jon Ivy （艾森）@Gargron been spending a lot of time explaining to college kids that being good at capitalism and being good at business are two different things, both functionally and morally different.
William Pietri@jon Thank you for your service! Rampant financialization has confused a lot of people about what good businesses are about
Kristin (vis.social Admin)Yes!
I may not agree with you all the time, and strongly disagree sometimes, but I completely agree with you on this.
We want sustainable business and social platforms and people first projects.
@Gargron On my instance, we see people join in a wave, then move on to the next shiny platform, and then come back to us.
We are the steady tortoise, that keeps working and improving at a steady pace, and is still here when the shiny platforms crash and burn.
We might sparkle, but that sparkle is from people connecting instead of just broadcasting.
And we care about ethics.
Avery (She/Her)@Gargron and it's really cool how the fediverse scales by having admins create their own servers instead of having one big centralized server. that way, the costs to run individual instances can be kept below the point where they would be desperate enough to try hooking up with a VC! boy, it sure would be silly for anyone to try and scale their individual instance like crazy. i sure do hope that no instance, especially not a developer's dogfooding instance, focuses too hard on getting new users in spite of all this.
william.maggosplease do some kind of public conversation with @evan and @mmasnick.bsky.social and @jay.bsky.team. I hate that people go there thinking they'll get all the same benefits of decentralization and public interest development in either place. there's a trade-off in design and easy money for a reason.
cowboybanjobiker 🤠🪕🚴Because of this, please make sure to support your mastodon instance.
Wysteria@Gargron The Matrix ecosystem is still doing pretty well for itself despite Element being a VC-funded organization. I think you'd be surprised.
uexo
interru 
@wysteriary @Gargron "Doing well" isn't how I would describe Matrix and its ecosystem.
Almost everyone I interact with via Matrix also complains about it. And I also have to deal with errors all the time.
Almost everyone I interact with via Matrix also complains about it. And I also have to deal with errors all the time.
@interru @Gargron Not that much worse than the fediverse in my experience. People complain all the time about weird incompatibilities between different fediverse software.
You're on one of those Misskey forks that lets a post have more than 4 images, which I won't see because Mastodon only supports up to 4.
Vanilla Misskey does not support note edits.
Mastodon notably does not support quote posts.
Non-Mastodon's complain about how Mastodon uses the summary field for content warnings.
@interru @Gargron
So if the Matrix ecosystem is not in a good place, then the fediverse ecosystem is not particularly healthy either.
The Matrix ecosystem enjoys an ongoing and active cadence for spec changes getting accepted. I still read the TWIM blog every other week or so to look out for accepted MSCs.
The fediverese has the FEP process, barely a dozen have actually managed to reach the Final stage.
@wysteriary @Gargron
I don't share your assessment that the Fediverse ecosystem and the Matrix ecosystem are in a similar state.
None of these Fediverse UX defects really stand in the way of using the Fediverse for its intended purpose. They are annoying, but not dealbreakers.
Meanwhile, I encountered plenty of bugs on Matrix that make it unreliable for its intended purpose as a chat platform. Rooms that completely break and get unusable forever because of state conflicts. Messages that won't decrypt. A horrible, inefficient reference server implementation and incomplete alternatives.
I can't recommend it to people that don't have technical knowledge. I once recommended it to some former colleagues, but that was a massive failure.
I don't share your assessment that the Fediverse ecosystem and the Matrix ecosystem are in a similar state.
None of these Fediverse UX defects really stand in the way of using the Fediverse for its intended purpose. They are annoying, but not dealbreakers.
Meanwhile, I encountered plenty of bugs on Matrix that make it unreliable for its intended purpose as a chat platform. Rooms that completely break and get unusable forever because of state conflicts. Messages that won't decrypt. A horrible, inefficient reference server implementation and incomplete alternatives.
I can't recommend it to people that don't have technical knowledge. I once recommended it to some former colleagues, but that was a massive failure.
@interru The fact that single-user instances don't see replies on other people's posts is a pretty big dealbreaker for what is ostensibly a social media protocol. Even for moderately populated instances it's an ongoing issue. Your instance is missing about 1/3 of the replies on Gargron's post.
The Matrix Live show for the past 2 weeks have explicitly been about fixing crypto. Yeah undecrypted messages suck, it's being worked on at least. That's more than can be said for many fediverse problems.
@wysteriary what you are describing is in my opinion not a deal breaker.
Actually I even consider it a feature.
There is a reason why this server doesn't use any of those open relays that give you a firehose of random messages. We only relay with pony adjacent instances. That way there are almost non toxic interactions. If you want to see every reply you still can open the post on the remote instance. I found your post that way for example.
Seeing everything from anyone will lead cultural clashes. Smaller communities are a good thing. Smaller instances have their perks.
See also: https://youtu.be/fuFlMtZmvY0
Actually I even consider it a feature.
There is a reason why this server doesn't use any of those open relays that give you a firehose of random messages. We only relay with pony adjacent instances. That way there are almost non toxic interactions. If you want to see every reply you still can open the post on the remote instance. I found your post that way for example.
Seeing everything from anyone will lead cultural clashes. Smaller communities are a good thing. Smaller instances have their perks.
See also: https://youtu.be/fuFlMtZmvY0
The Internet is Worse Than Ever – Now What?
@interru
I think the real solution is some form of on-demand backfill for the replies of specific posts,.
Cultural clashes are a concern I also have. Ironically, I think Meta's Threads is leading the way on this front, their interface fully segregates remote and local users (eg remote and local replies are sorted differently), and federation is opt-in.
If the rest of the fediverse was built this way, it would IMO be huge for strengthening smaller cultures and communities on the fediverse.
vinnie@wysteriary @Gargron I'm surprised
Matthew Hodgson@wysteriary @Gargron it probably depends on who your investors are. but the truth is always that investors want a return on their investment, which means growing the company. the timescale in which that happens, and what the groundrules are in terms of how you do it, are up to the investors (and the board as a whole, who obviously are hopefully aligned.)
@matthew Yea bringing in investors is always concerning.
My view is that Bluesky could do a lot worse than a cryptocurrency investor, since prices have been booming for the past half-year.
Not to mention that they (Bluesky) successfully pulled a fast one with Twitter and Jack Dorsey a few years ago. Or it appears that they did. I suppose we can't know exactly what the deal was that let Bluesky seemingly break off from Twitter with no-strings-attached
Very grateful you chimed in.
Sally Strange@Gargron *to deliver AND die
Mister Wanko@Gargron Let's choose death for them!
Andrew@Gargron yeah but think about how much you money you could get from a bunch of bitcoin scammers who promise not to pressure you to add bitcoin scams 🙃
四眼心理医生@Gargron no different from wikipedia, both are authoritarian
Mx VerdaWhat if (somewhat) decentralised, funded-like-libraries and other infrastructure, smaller interoperable wikis?
And/or mandated minority respesentation and community accountable open procedures
0x@Gargron I have talked shit in the past about some of the design decisions you've made, but I want you to know I have the utmost respect for your principled position on this. Thank you.
Igor JagecMastodon will thrive when you make it interoperable with another social networks such as Bluesky.social or Diaspora.
Luís de Araújo@igorjagec.bsky.social@bsky.brid.gy I am writing this from mastodon, so I guess it interoperates. But minimally, it could be argued.
I have an account on floss.social so I'll test it when I get a chance, thanks for confirming this.
FLOSS.social
FLOSS.social
@igorjagec.bsky.social@bsky.brid.gy You know, I tried bsky too. In the end, I find that good Mastodon apps are delivering content more focused in my interests with zero shade seeking, rage bait, etc. Now I contacted some people at bsky asking them to bridge. After all is just following a profile. Some scientists stayed there, but good discussions in my area disappeared both there and on X, unfortunately. Happy here.
Zark Muckerburg@Gargron with every news article I see of other media companies and VC anything the more and more im glad Im a part of Mastodon. Thank you for starting this thank you for making this happen
@Gargron I think you mean "deliver, then die."
Kneworldodor
OpenSourceHero
Miracles2@Gargron ok, entonces debemos irnos ?
Xing Shi Cai@Gargron The number of users of Mastodon has never become too large. It looks like it will be like this forever. If that is the case, would you regret not have taken some VC money to make it big? Given how Twitter (X)'s current status, I personally would prefer some better alternatives.
lizzzzard@Gargron I really don't get how social networks can be a business case. Paying users that cover server costs and admin wages, sure. But beyond that, I don't see how one would make any profit from it, let alone VC level money (10% roi or more)
it’s social infrastructure like telephone lines, railroads and stations, health regulations, medical studies, disaster alerts, and farming subsidies.
Feels like it needs a baseline investment (in line with any increasing costs) to maintain agreed minimum wellbeing, directly and indirectly.
Like an unconditional baseline investment!
UBI should be a good initialism.
Mastodon MigrationThank you Eugen.
Patrick Leavy@Gargron more precisely "to deliver and then enshittify"
Paul Sochacki@Gargron it's sort of amazing Mastodon hasn't been stomped down already...
<eerie foreshadowing music starts playing in the background>
–modo ⚛️ 🧬 🇪🇺 🇨🇦 🇺🇦@Gargron so true - I worked at a VC funded startup and they let it go for two years with no interest in us making revenue. I was told by the founder this was common and gives VCs more leverage later. If you've created something good then you'll need more money to stay in business and they get more equity for continued funding because you're desperate. And if you're mediocre you're never going to be a great exit so they cut their losses and move on.
Sepia Fan@Gargron
That's another good reason to stay crowdfunded and don't raise VC:
https://social.growyourown.services/@FediTips/113364985280012085
by @FediTips
That's another good reason to stay crowdfunded and don't raise VC:
https://social.growyourown.services/@FediTips/113364985280012085
by @FediTips
Fedi.Tips (@FediTips@social.growyourown.services)
This is why I have been trying to warn about #BlueSky. BlueSky has just been partially bought by a cryptocurrency company "Blockchain Capital" and appointed a blockchain / cryptocurrency expert to their board: https://bsky.social/about/blog/10-24-2024-series-a The board member is a bitcoin researcher involved with NFT analytics. BlueSky describe the tie-up with Blockchain Capital as a "natural partnership" and says the blockchain company has "a uniquely deep understanding of our decentralized foundation". (via @jwz@mastodon.social)
Sonikku@Gargron It's the old trick- this decades-old website explains it nicely: https://analog-rf.com/busfail.shtml
Cdrik ⏚🌻Suite à ce pouet du créateur de Mastodon ⤴️
Avez-vous déjà donné un peu d'argent pour le projet Mastodon ?
J'avoue moi non, mais je vais le faire asap, en espérant qil y ait plusieurs solutions de paiement. J'utilise Masto quotidiennement.
Et vous ?
Oui déjà donné
Non jamais mais je vais
Non, pas dans mes plans
Autre
Poll ended at .
thomas@Bristow_69
Moi je donne à pleroma et fedilab
Moi je donne à pleroma et fedilab
Turb@Bristow_69
Ah j'ai répondu oui, mais c'était pour @LaQuadrature qui gère mamot.fr (un don multi motivé)
Ah j'ai répondu oui, mais c'était pour @LaQuadrature qui gère mamot.fr (un don multi motivé)
5moufl@turb @Bristow_69 @LaQuadrature c'était pour balancer mon "non". maintenant que tu le dis, j'ai soutenu LQdN dans le passé 🤗
Tykayn@Bristow_69
toutafey depuis 2018 il me semble bien que je file des sous au projet mastodon.
les intermédiaires de paiement se gavent sur ça, et il paraît que la @fsf dispose d'un truc qui permettrait de moins enrichir des intermédiaires mais j'ai pas vu ce que ça donne.