Lorenzo Ancora 
Responsible #FOSS developers should avoid #politics and intentionally divisive behaviours against their userbase. The #freesoftware movement survives on reputation. Less #Wokot and more #Godot!
Julian H@LorenzoAncora what politics? What divisive behaviors?
@julianh please see the post image for details.
@LorenzoAncora to clarify I want you to name exactly what "divisive behaviors" you don't want Godot involved in. I mean specifics, not just general terms like "politics."
@julianh not only Godot, but all FOSS. Divisive behaviours are actions against the interests of the userbase: discrimination, sexism against any gender, censorship, apology of dictatorships, sponsoring DIY medicine, spiritual fraud, supporting extremist movements, adopting non-free licenses mid development and so on. These behaviors are widely recognized as harmful and can create a toxic environment.
@LorenzoAncora specifically what did godot do in this case. If you're gonna say censorship, censorship of what.
@[email protected] the community manager abused the moderation tools to censor different point of views and hide end users and developers complaints. By also restricting access to the userbase without a valid reason, the staff also made the software temporarily non-free for part of the userbase, thus infringing the existing relation of trust and damaging the reputation of the project and of the free software ecosystem as a whole.
@LorenzoAncora what specific views did they censor
@julianh going into the level of detail you've asked for when on a public profile would put at risk the privacy and right to be forgotten of the specific victims of this and of linked scandals. Some of them are part of communities at risk.
The views I have referred to are all those that oppose #wokot, feel discriminated or simply consider the initiative a distraction from more important tasks, like software development.
The views I have referred to are all those that oppose #wokot, feel discriminated or simply consider the initiative a distraction from more important tasks, like software development.
Alfred M. Szmidt@LorenzoAncora talk about ghosting… nothing in @julianh question requires that level of detail. You’ve posted a screenshot, how does that abide by your own rules of the right to be forgotten? Pathetic.
@amszmidt the screenshot was already public and available from many sources, I didn't post any new content. The rules I'm proud to follow are those of my country and of the EU.
I'm sorry but I will not target specific individuals because you pressure me to do so, no matter the number of accounts you use. If you want to harass people, do it on your own. If not wanting to compromise people's life is pathetic, then I'm happy to be defined as such.
I'm sorry but I will not target specific individuals because you pressure me to do so, no matter the number of accounts you use. If you want to harass people, do it on your own. If not wanting to compromise people's life is pathetic, then I'm happy to be defined as such.
@LorenzoAncora For someone yelling "censorship" you're quite adorable to block someone -- I guess the your database is non-free software too now since you prohibit people from participating in? /s
More fun is that you're making shit up, multiple accounts? harassment?
George Laskowsky@LorenzoAncora I disagree. Woke is not a dirty word, and it is only divisive due to a fragment of society believing they should have privileges over marginalized groups.
I don't believe enterprises are some kind of pure entities detached of human concerns. Behind any human endeavour are humans, and not taking a stance on political topics is actually taking a stance.
I applaud the #Godot project for doing so. I wish others would do the same, even if I disagree on their positions.
@glaskows I fully agree with you, woke isn't a bad word when used correctly. 👍 However, neutrality is very important for a FOSS project, which should encourage participation in development and widespread usage of the final product.
MilitaryG@LorenzoAncora guess what?
Donations 57k Milestone just reached
If it'd be true sponzor would go off but it didn't.
Empty words.
You only have big mouth and it ends there.
@MilitaryG I hope Godot earns much more. I just didn't like the political involvement.
Yora@LorenzoAncora Boo!
Bigotry must be fought at every level of society and all cultural spaces.
Very proud of Godot.
@yora who disagrees with the wokot initiative isn't necessarily bigot: some may just prefer a more neutral development strategy.
Paragrimm 
@LorenzoAncora where does politics begin and where does it end? Isn't the idea and the goals behind #foss political aswell? Regain power over companies that steal and sell our data without our consent? Being able to publish a game without worrying about licensing or fees or whatever? Making technology available for everyone instead of a handful corporations?
Isn't all this political to some extent aswell?
@Paragrimm no, "politician" and "software developer" are distinct professions. Free software developers should focus on producing free software.
@LorenzoAncora gotcha, you don't understand free software and the organization behind it. Those who work on the engine are "software developers" and focus on improving the engine. Since nothing technical changed and nobody is forced to show a pride flag in the splash screen for example, there's no politics in the free software. Now the mind blow: "community manager" != "software dev"; "project lead" != "software dev"; ... where is the impact for you as a dev or engine user?
Hi @Paragrimm , I'm a long standing free/libre software developer, also served the Free Software Foundation and many other free sofware associations and projects. I administer the Free Software Database.
I hope this experience is a sufficient "proof" of my understanding of free software! 😅
@LorenzoAncora I think you are gravely misrepresenting your so called credentials, you never worked for the FSF. None of which are proof of your understanding of free software.
The Free Software Database should also not be confused with the Free Software Directory which is maintained by the FSF and volunteers.
@amszmidt Yea, I sadly realized that a bit too late :D thanks for clearing that up though :)
@[email protected] to be clear: I've been a member of the GNU webmaster team to facilitate the transition toward new web standard and co-administered the Free Software Directory for years. I did all for free. Then I founded - in agreement with the FSF staff, which has direct privileged access to manage all GNU entries - the Free Software Database. Nowadays I no longer actively volunteer for the FSF, altough all GNU members can still ask for my assistance due to our history of cooperation.
@[email protected] the Free Software Database is a user-friendly platform which aims to offer similar services, but is more focused on a modern search experience and on deeper evaluation of new entries, which can be more than software. The FSD and the FSWDB can freely exchange their contents. From a technological point it is meant to be a full replacement and can diverge in content and internal policies, altough it will always only offer FOSS and information about the free software community.
@Paragrimm all foundations are fully responsible for the actions of their staff and official collaborators, regardless of their role.
The impact of toxic behaviours against the community could manifest as a loss of users, profit and reputation for anyone involved. Of course, this includes engine users when the usage of Godot is disclosed in the final product.
@LorenzoAncora I do agree with THIS. The foundation is responsible for what happened. And there should be consequences for abusing power etc. I agree. But that's the problem of the foundation, not of the software. It's wrong to reviewbomb an engine that de facto hasn't changed software wise, it's wrong to attack devs who use Godot, it's wrong to attack community members, because they have a different political view and so on and so forth. The people are political, yes. The software isn't. 1/2
@LorenzoAncora 2/2 therefore: distinguish between these 2 things.
The people are the problem, not the software. Subjectively speaking the outrage was bigger than the outrage back then regarding "master" branch and that it should be called differently, due to the words history. And even that was silly af (it's just a branch name... why should I be upset if the default name is changed to "main"?).
Nothing would've happened if it would be about FPS or RPGs, why the outrage for "Woke games"?
@LorenzoAncora To add to this... FPS games and RPGs are inherently political... CoD with their WW topics, LOTRO was inspired by real politics, ...
I fail to understand why these "Woke" games are so inherently different that there's an outrage justified? I'm sure that there would be a drama if "Gone Home" would've been released today... why?
Well... because some of the people who are upset, have a concrete problem with THIS specific political view... not politics in general. Hypocrites.
@Paragrimm Good point. Most criticisms target the wokot initiative and how the public relations were handled. Games are a form of art and art can be political, but game engines are tools which go beyond gaming (they can be used to create GUIs, 3D editors, CADs and so on), represent a huge time sink and cannot have this luxury. Engines, frameworks and libraries are hard-to-replace critical components which need to be trusted by both end users and developers. Perceived neutrality is precious.
Luke T. Shumaker@LorenzoAncora The Free Software movement is fundamentally a political movement advocating for folks' freedoms.
"Advocacy for rights has no place in our advocacy for rights" is a great way to neutralize the movement.
@lukeshu no, this is called activism, not all free software developers are activists and the goal of the Godot project isn't activism.
@LorenzoAncora A movement without activism isn't a movement, it's a standstill.
@lukeshu developing a good free software is already an outstanding service to the movement. Developers who don't want to be social activists are widespread and perfectly justified. However, this is going off-topic, the scope of the original post is different. Please stay on track. Thank you in advance.
Antiquity/Midnight Spire Games@LorenzoAncora Divisive behavior is throwing a weeks-long screaming fit and forking the engine over a little rainbow picture. Clearly these are volatile people who lack the emotional stability to collaborate with a diverse global community on a large and complex project.
@midnightspire I can't perform a psychological evaluation of those individuals to confirm or deny, but the damage to the free software movement is present. Godot admitted the mistake, but part of the free software community will no longer trust the project.
@LorenzoAncora I can. It's just more of the same politics from Gamergate. Godot's mistake was not expecting a giant wave of politically-motivated abuse from the people who keep bringing their abusive politics into everything.
This is nothing new and completely predictable, because it always happens the exact same way. If Godot had posted "we hate woke" with an X through the rainbow, the same people would be cheering, just like they did when GOG started posting pro-Gamergate memes.
@midnightspire are you a qualified psychologist? if the answer is no, then you can't perform a psychological evaluation on anyone. So please refrain from doing so.
We don't know what those people really think, the only thing we know is that Godot admitted of having mistreated part of the community. Inclusivity should target the entire userbase and social justice shouldn't be the main focus of FOSS game engine development.
@LorenzoAncora Rofl. I will refrain from nothing, because there's no analysis needed. It's all in the open. Crying about woke IS the admission, the statement of intent, and the entirety of the thought, just like crying about SJW before it, and crying about PC before that. No one is fooled by it.
@midnightspire I wouldn't hastly judge people I don't know. Especialy a big group. Maybe you have mind reading powers, but the rest of us didn't drink the magic potion it seems! 😆
Those look like normal users to me and perhaps to the rest of the netizens.
RetroDevDaemon@LorenzoAncora This is not political. It's bigotry and ignorance. But you probably know that.
@retrodev on what side?
@retrodev both users and developers are part of the free software community and both deserve your respect. The LGBT...+ community is a mix of initiatives all worthy of listening, but not all of these are compatible with FOSS development, which requires neutrality and objectivity to ensure the final product isn't damaged by prejudice.
bignoseGarbage, @LorenzoAncora.
#SoftwareFreedom, the political principle behind #FreeSoftware, is exactly what founded the movement and is the reason you have #FOSS today.
Your complaint about politics is incoherent. Software distribution *is* political. Granting a license *is* political. Your position on this *is* political.
@bignose not all free software developers are activists and the goal of the Godot project isn't activism nor redefining the free software movement.
That's one political position @LorenzoAncora
and you are free to express it.
@bignose please stop editing your already answered messages.
@bignose answering your edit: granting a license to the end users is a must in open source projects. FOSS licenses are part of the legal system and under normal circumstances do not contain political statements nor endorse the politics of a certain country. Licenses are a legal tool, nothing more.
DearFox
@DearFox me too. Nowadays you can't even use free software without risking being involved in weird stuff. Moderation is becoming a necessity.
PotMetPetunias@LorenzoAncora Gaslighting much?
You are projecting being inclusive as being the divisive thing.
@PotMetPetunias please don't misuse the word gaslighting. Thank you in advance.
I believe #inclusivity should target the entire userbase and social justice shouldn't be the main focus of FOSS game engine development.
@LorenzoAncora I do not misuse the word gaslighting, thanks for your concern.
Inclusivity also means standing up to the excluding entities when arbitrary groups are excluded, ridiculed etc. Which is what the Godot reply did, but you don't show the whole thread.
You are gaslighting, again:
- Stating the presumption that social justice is the main focus in this discussion because of one tiny responsive message.
p.s. Free, Open Source Software Advocacy is a Social Justice Movement.
@PotMetPetunias it wasn't a concern, it was a warning: if you keep abusing the word gaslighing (which should be reserved for more serious topics), you will be excluded from this and future discussions.
@LorenzoAncora As a father to four, including two 🌈, kids, I think this is a very serious topic. I am not abusing it based on your arbitrary severity criterium, I am calling you out.
p.s. Do you see the irony of your threat to exclude me?
@PotMetPetunias good for you if you have 🌈 or 🦄 or 🧑🏿 kids or relatives, I fully respect that and wish them the best.
In my social profiles all users are equals. I'm asking you to stop misusing a word which is better used for critical situations, as keeping up with this behaviour could pollute search engines and offend the victims of abuses.
In my social profiles all users are equals. I'm asking you to stop misusing a word which is better used for critical situations, as keeping up with this behaviour could pollute search engines and offend the victims of abuses.
@PotMetPetunias while #LGBTQ and #BLM are good and respectable initiatives, FOSS development projects have no obligation to take sides with any specific social movement. The only purpose of the Godot Engine project is to provide a free suite of tools and educational materials around the engine, so activism is far outside its scope.
@LorenzoAncora They were not taking sides with any specific social movement.
They reacted to ridiculement of certain groups by explicity including some of those ridiculed groups.
I find it very weird how standing up to ridiculement of people is being translated, projected, into taking sides.
Also, you define Godot's purpose as like a hammer's only purpose is to be the object hammer. The tool being a tool is not in itself its purpose, its raison d'être.
1/2
@LorenzoAncora Regarding your: "FOSS development projects have no obligation to take sides with any specific social movement.": FOSS is a social movement in itself. It has the defined obligation to be 'open for all and anyone', therefore their reaction to explicitly include the in this discussion ridiculed and excluded groups is the only right reaction, stemming from FOSS policy.
2/2
@PotMetPetunias FOSS only refers to a group of software licenses and development methods: FOSS developers are in no obligation to be activists of the free software movement, to support any foundation/company or to adhere to any specific philosophy.
Project maintainers have total freedom as long as the behaviour of their collaborators is legal and does not harm the userbase or the reputation of other development projects.
Project maintainers have total freedom as long as the behaviour of their collaborators is legal and does not harm the userbase or the reputation of other development projects.