Eric Schmidt:

‘learned that there were people who I call “glue people”. The glue people are incredibly nice people who sit at interstitial boundaries between groups, and they assist in activity. And they are very, very loyal, and people love them, and you don’t need them at all.

[..] I kept trying to get rid of these glue people, because they were getting in the way, because they slowed everything down.’

quoted in Contempt for the Glue People by @norootcause

https://surfingcomplexity.blog/2021/08/28/contempt-for-the-glue-people/

Contempt for the glue people

The clip below is from a lecture from 2015 that then-Google CEO Eric Schmidt gave to a Stanford class. Here’s a transcript, emphasis mine. When I was at Novell, I had learned that there were …

Surfing Complexity

Contempt serves to self-elevate by denigrating. It is a classic power-over kind of move, for it takes personal power from.

Still. The importance of “glue people” might be better understood if we used a word that connotes cohesion rather than adhesion??

My suggestion?? (For a word to use, if we’re reaching towards cohesion and system integrity.)

Tips hat towards Mary Parker Follett and says:

Integrators?

(Though there are glue people who fill in very particular gaps… which is different. So there’s that.)

@RuthMalan We're not "used gum people on the underside of a pub table"

We're the compensatory mechanics to failures in planning, communication, teamwork, collaboration, and shared understanding.

We are the antithesis to "move fast and break things". Probably where this disdain comes from

With the help of glue people, fewer things get broken, the things that get broken are less broken, and more things that make it out the door work as intended.

@microwavenby @RuthMalan I think the reason people like Schmidt don't like glue people is they spot these grifters a mile off, and that's what they really don't like.

For Schmidt glue people have to go, so he was able to rise up the ranks.

@tanepiper @microwavenby @RuthMalan very much this.

Thing about being a glue person in enterprise is that you have much better visibility onto the difference between what's actually being supplied and what's being demanded than executives do. Some executives make a point of leveraging that. I've even known a couple of "management by walking around" executives who were themselves glue people! But if you're trying to build power instead of product, glue people are definitely the enemy.

@darcher @microwavenby @RuthMalan yea, I'm a glue person. The number of people interact with who either have no clue, or only care about their own career is staggering. More than once I've had to justify my teams existence to people who make decisions on incomplete data
@microwavenby @RuthMalan at their core the giants are extractive not collaborative. They don't want an ecosystem of the web; they want you stuck in _their_ ecosystem.
The inclusive cohesion @microwavenby describes works against the tech giants actual goals. Two-way doors vs butts glued to seats.
@microwavenby @RuthMalan
I agree wholeheartedly
And would even claim:
The glue people are the people who make things happen or possible. They know the right person from a different department, group or team who can support an initiative
(This is true at least for larger organisations)

@realn2s @microwavenby @RuthMalan I've used the term "glue people" before - picked up from somewhere - for those people who've been with an organisation long enough, and have the right personality, to know who you should ask and how you should ask them.

I liked the point earlier in the thread about avoiding implications of "adhesion" or slowing things down... they're like oil or grease, not glue? But "lubricators" has unfortunately connotations, any preferred terms?

@SonOfSunTzu @realn2s @microwavenby

No doubt it was this talk/post (or folk talking about it): https://noidea.dog/glue

Being Glue — No Idea Blog

Slides and notes for the Being Glue talk.

No Idea Blog

@microwavenby @RuthMalan
Thinking about this made me realise that there a deep arrogance and bias shown in this story.

If "glue people" were bad but get rehired by managers, this would mean Eric Schmidt hired bad managers. So, he should maybe stay out of hiring

If Eric Schmidt assumes he hired competent managers, and they rehire the "glue people" for a reason.
He should stay out of their hiring process.

If you don't consider that you can be wrong or maybe not have the complete picture, you fail to see this contradiction

@microwavenby @RuthMalan In many cases, glue people also greatly reduce the strain and stresses on the humans that result from the failure types you mention.

@microwavenby @RuthMalan we’re also the ones who care about other people’s growth and development. We nurture junior devs and answer newbie questions. We advocate for others. We’re the people who make a place worth working for, not a shithole to endure.

Sometimes, though I think we shouldn’t be doing any of it: that we should be kicking out the support struts and fucking off to garden, surrounded by cats. Maybe we should be letting broken things die rather than striving to make them livable.

@microwavenby @RuthMalan When people ask me what my job is, I tell them I’m spackle. Hopefully the connotations are better than “glue.”
@microwavenby @RuthMalan well, they're problems if you want your employees to be interchangeable. but uhm..... if your goal is a functional organization...
@microwavenby @RuthMalan If I sniff you do a get a good solid rush of Stolid Citizen ?

@microwavenby @RuthMalan the towering lack of understanding by Schmidt of why people who cross boundaries are not just useful but essential … it really boggles the mind. It’s like he has no understanding of complex systems behavior at all.

Multi-disciplinary people who can straddle domains are perhaps the *most* essential part of any org bigger than a handful of folks.

@darkuncle @microwavenby @RuthMalan no wonder his orgs all fall apart under their own weight

@darkuncle @microwavenby @RuthMalan A glue persons job is to hide information from doing the work, a glue person will say they hide what the people doing the work that will distract them, politics etc. However, "glue" people aren't actually contributing to the work directly, so the ability to know what the team needs to know is always going to be limited, because they don't have the skillset to know.

For every named role you create you don't change the work that needs to be done, you just move the tasks around, and by moving the relationships to a single person, so deprive everyone else in the team from building those relationships, and you need those relationships to write code well.

@PurpleBooth @microwavenby @RuthMalan I'd argue that's the exact opposite of the value of a glue person: they aren't hiding information, they are connecting domains and teams that might typically not connect often or work together, and highlighting how work that happens in one area can impact or improve another.

Perhaps we aren't talking about the same kind of people? David Epstein's book "Range” on the power of generalists overlaps a lot with the mental model I have for glue people, and the great ones I have worked with in my career.

@darkuncle @microwavenby @RuthMalan Glue people are people whos role is to communicate across teams, and coordinate. Architects of different flavours, various kinds of designers, project/delivery managers.
@PurpleBooth @microwavenby @RuthMalan this is my mental model, yes
@darkuncle @microwavenby @RuthMalan So glue roles are bullshit because they take a person, give work that was being done close to a problem, and then move it far away.
They take a power from a team, to make a decision about X and disempower them. Otherwise people would be doing this stuff by themselves and the roles would be redundant.

@darkuncle @microwavenby @RuthMalan Like if X person needed to talk to Y person, then they have to talk to Y person. They have to build the relationship. IF you give it to Z person the chain is now X - Z - Y.

Z person is now the friend of Y and not X.

More complex, more failure modes, more room for empire building and misunderstanding.

@PurpleBooth @microwavenby @RuthMalan so the political failure mode here, I definitely have seen and agree with - it's a real problem. The best glue people I have known spend their time brokering introductions and making friends across teams, rather than acting as gatekeepers.
@PurpleBooth @microwavenby @RuthMalan I think the ability to connect disparate domains and the people that operate in them is not BS, and also relatively uncommon -- glue roles are what enable organizations to solve complex, multi-disciplinary problems that are beyond the scope of any single team, and that need people who can help coordinate across teams and draw on knowledge and experience that spans a variety of domains.
@RuthMalan Very first draft thoughts adjacent to this from a few years back https://adrianhoward.com/posts/overlap-and-glue/
Overlap and Glue

I've been having some conversations with clients recently around, for want of better terms, glue and overlap approaches to integrating different communities/disciplines/groups within an organisation.

adrianhoward.com
@adrianh nice thanks! I should collect all these some place :)
@RuthMalan cohesion over adhesion! Perfect!
@RuthMalan sometimes adhesion is sufficient for the context, but seems adhesion is usually necessary but not sufficient for the sum to be greater than the whole. Or for a cohesive Product. Or for the socio-technical sustainability of the system.

@RuthMalan

> a word that connotes cohesion rather than adhesion

We could more aggressively mix metaphors?

We make rain from glue

=>

Glowing testimonials say how well I serve as the stitching between teams, say how competently I sincerely welcome each new engineer into the effort

Are people like me on strike against Google/ Eric Schmidt?

We make rain from glue, and he stands against us?

Not for him then

<=

/via how i first quote-tweet'ed https://twitter.com/mipsytipsy/status/1827086578449313824

Charity Majors (@mipsytipsy) on X

Whoa. Literally sat here speechless and processing this for a while. Explains *so much* about Google. I'm sure there was a nugget of truth under the original diagnosis, but talk about throwing the glue out with the bureaucracy. Jesus.

X (formerly Twitter)
@pelavarre thank you for all of this (the clipped references too)!

@RuthMalan

You're welcome!

Great fun for me to find a second person on Earth who enjoys this thinking

So kind that you speak your enjoyment out loud

I'm way curious about my own career future 😛

Here are more complete citations =>

:

April Wensel tweets out her thoughts in some years and not others. This year of her thoughts is up at https :// twitter . com/aprilwensel

:

I've not followed Dan Na so closely but he interacts with Charity Majors & Will Larson

Dan spoke this thought that I quoted at or near March/2021 https :// twitter . com/dxna/status/1368926037275533318

I first heard Charity speak in an evening conference of lightning talks in San Jose

:

@RuthMalan I love the framing of cohesion vs adhesion! How about "systematician" (or "systematic," though risks connotation of study vs practitioner). "Connectors" might also work?

(And I have to say that this whole thread is 🤩! It makes me feel like I've found my people.)

@RuthMalan High leverage work is possible because of a solid base. The lever needs the fulcrum. A net without knots is just string. Knowledge is woven from facts. (I think that know and knot even share a common Proto-Indo-European root *"gnō?)
@RuthMalan
This is contempt & monolithic, colonial exploitation mentality-monopolize political power & hold conquered societies/ppl as inferior.
I assume he is working 25 hours a day (he somehow bent time & added the extra hour), does not eat, does not sleep or do any commercially “useless” activity.
Calling people “glue” is such reductionist and linear thinking about human adaptability.
Life of living, breathing beings is like a kaleidoscope with many perspectives, not a one-eyed monocle.
@RuthMalan
A decade & half of random, entropic activity missing the bullseye target is what happens when there’s no cohesion in thought, only executing action-“working together was such a foreign concept that management had to bribe every individual employee”-https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instability-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/
See Google graveyard-https://killedbygoogle.com/
There’s a reason why speed of decision making & not only speed of execution is relevant- “Wave (insert product name) has not seen the ‘user adoption’ we would have liked."
A decade and a half of instability: The history of Google messaging apps

Sixteen years after the launch of Google Talk, Google messaging is still a mess.

Ars Technica
@dahukanna [exclamations redacted!] “working together was such a foreign concept that management had to bribe every individual employee” !!!! [exclaims further!!] (i know that big orgs can sometimes have microcultures created by managers who are managing to hold a different organizational space for their group, but still … that is … wow….)
@dahukanna @RuthMalan not the point but i loved wave :(
@hipsterelectron @dahukanna same! Had such hopes!

@RuthMalan @hipsterelectron

Me three! It was a communication cockpit & like all socio-technical devices e.g. cars, mobile phones, etc. needs to:
a.)teach the necessary cognitive + bio-mechanical skills & provide training materials e.g. driving lessons for cars (wave) as no one is born knowing how to drive. It’s an acquired skill.
&
b.)be designed keeping human intuition & existing practices in mind. Why & how do people use their existing communication tools? What need is the tool addressing?

@dahukanna oh!!! That is a huge insight (i wasn’t seeing) — thank you! Undercutting the informal communication pathways and (org) cultural cohesion makers for power — oof!
@dahukanna @RuthMalan part of the reason this framing really hurts me is that a very close friend who i worked on research together with was exactly just such a glue employee at google and was roundly considered one of the most empathetic humans by so many and recently passed from an illness and i wonder (not too often or it hurts too much) to what extent this contempt for glue was responsible for his death
@RuthMalan @dahukanna he also maintained the re2 regex engine which is a ludicrously critical component of google systems especially web search but god forbid the silent background infrastructure be lauded over the sound of plundering
@RuthMalan a lot of people I know liken us to enzymes
@RuthMalan sure, we slow things down, in the sense that it’s slower to convert sucrose to ATP than just breaking it apart into glucose and fructose. But good luck getting anything done with just glucose and fructose and no ATP