Steve Troughton-Smith

The DMA is only vague if you're trying to game it. The rules amount to “don't be a dick”.

Apple's out here asking “well how will I know if I'm being a dick?? I can’t operate under this environment!”

Whereas most people don't have to ask themselves that question

Jun 21, 2024 at 11:08pmIvory for Mac
Show threadPhilippJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith frustrating how the tech press is just eating the Apple talking points up. Apple must be so pleased with themselves.
Show threadJakobJun 22, 2024
@eierund @stroughtonsmith I think this is a bit too simple. I strongly believe Apple isn’t deciding to not launch these features out of pure spite. One can argue whether iPhones would really need an A17 Pro to run Apple Intelligence. That’s how it is tho and it’s gonna be a huge motive for people to upgrade their iPhones when iOS 18 launches. I don’t think Apple would just deliberately cut into their iPhones sales out of spite in a huge market like Europe.
Show threadSteve Sebban, CSIJun 22, 2024
@jakob41 @eierund @stroughtonsmith Spite is in Apple’s DNA. Remember their relation with nVidia…
Show threadErnesto MonasterioJun 22, 2024
@stevesebban @jakob41 @eierund @stroughtonsmith I would argue Nvidia was also very spiteful. It’s not like they are a company known for having amazing relationships with their partners either.
Show threadSteve Sebban, CSIJun 22, 2024
@prismamidi @jakob41 @eierund @stroughtonsmith And yet, that does not make Apple less spiteful. How many Macs came with a nVidia GPUs installed (or proper macOS drivers for that matter) since their clash?
Show threadErnesto MonasterioJun 22, 2024
@stevesebban @jakob41 @eierund @stroughtonsmith Oh yeah, I’m not arguing the opposite. I’m just pointing out that Nvidia has a long history of acting exactly the same as Apple towards other companies.
Show threadSteve Sebban, CSIJun 22, 2024
@prismamidi @jakob41 @eierund @stroughtonsmith I know they are bullies with their partners for sure but I don’t follow nVidia enough to have an opinion about them so I’ll take your word for it 😆
Show threadMatthaus WoolardJun 21, 2024

@stroughtonsmith yes and no,

There are areas were the DMA is unclear on how much access the platform vendor must provide day one to third parties.

Eg does the DMA require apple expose apis so that MS and Linux devs can implement iPhone mirroring?

Is this an iPhone platform feature or a Mac feature, so does it fall under the DMA or not?

These are legit questions that are unclear and would likely require a good bit of dev work to comply with securely.

Show threadSteve Troughton-SmithJun 21, 2024
@hishnash what they can't do is self-preference their apps on their platform. So no, they don't need to implement mirroring APIs for other platforms. But they do need to let other screen sharing apps allow remote control — which is how the feature should have been built in the first place
Show threadMatthaus WoolardJun 21, 2024

@stroughtonsmith

DMA is not just about apps it also covers system features and services. There is clearly un-certainty within the teams with respect to the iPhone Mirroring feature and if that would be required to be exposed otherwise they would be shipping it.

As for remote controle, yes they should have an api to let other screens sharing apps (that already exists). But that will require more work.

Show threadMichał JurewiczJun 22, 2024
@hishnash @stroughtonsmith That’s whole point that Apple tries to figure out what falls under DMA and what’s not, instead of assuming that every user faced feature should be treated as covered by DMA. Naturally, It’s more work but nothing which should be impossible for Apple. In this situation blaming regulation for its own incompetence is just silly. Especially without providing any solid arguments.
Show threadMatthaus WoolardJun 22, 2024

@malauch Yes but that is extra work, for any feature that might possibly fall under the DMA they are required to go put in extra work to ensure that they provide this parties access to it. (thus committing them to an API they then must support)

The DMA does not have the ability within it for apple to seek pre-aproaval they cant check with the commission in advance, all they can do is delay features or risk a legal battle.

Show threadMichał JurewiczJun 22, 2024
@hishnash It’s exactly the same as automotive has more work to keep products according to regulations. That’s the whole point of regulation to force more work on important topics. The same as developers have to put more work to be allowed on AppStore. It’s just a tiny bit more symmetrical now.
Apple has all resources of the world and definitely can do this on time or plan a delay in a more orderly fashion without silly excuses.
Show threadMatthaus WoolardJun 22, 2024

@malauch One of the differences with automative regulation is the clarity on what is and is not permitted.

The DMA is intentionally very vague in a way that you don't see with seatbelt or crumple zone regulation.

It would take a LOT more work to make iPhone mirroring and remote controle be exposed to third parties in such a way that it matinees the same level of security and is an API that apples teams want to commit to long term. Not to mention the system ML access for DMA.

Show threadLeonJun 22, 2024

@stroughtonsmith @hishnash i am not sure i agree with the concept that anyone should be able to ship any app that can do anything the platform can do

there are just way too many power imbalances. how long until an employer or government requires people install apps on their phones that tracked them and let them remotely access, keylog and record everything they do?

it's been sickening to read how features that to me seem common sense, like family controls and screen time, have been used by abusers to monitor and control their partner. scaling that cruely to corporations or nation-states is unconscionable.

apple's pro-user anti-developer stance has been quite irritating for some employers and clients I've had over the years, but the idea that the person holding the phone can make an informed free choice about what apps that phone is running just isn’t based in reality.

seems to me the only way this could work is if eu married these laws with ones just as savage and policed for anyone coercing installation.

Show threadphi1997Jun 22, 2024
@leon
Not letting users have all the options they deserve is anything but pro-user.
@stroughtonsmith @hishnash
Show threadJorge Salvador CaffarenaJun 22, 2024
@hishnash @stroughtonsmith if that is the reasoning, they have to stop selling all Apple products altogether, right now.
Show threadPhilip Mallegol-HansenJun 21, 2024

@stroughtonsmith That seems to be a fundamental difference between American (Perhaps inherited from British?) and European law.

They’re always out there with the “well technically this comma was placed such that I had to do A and B to be wrong, not A or B” and any sane person would just say “Yeah no, just stop.”

Show threadKayJun 22, 2024
@philip @stroughtonsmith except for the part where they sometimes philosophize about the intentions of their founding fathers 😄
Show threadMieszko ŚlusarczykJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith Or „how much of a dick can I be?”
Show threadMysk🇨🇦🇩🇪Jun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith I assume it is more about the GDPR than the DMA. Google and X have previously delayed the launch of their new AI tools in the EU due to privacy concerns. Apple is following suit.
Show threadJorge Salvador CaffarenaJun 22, 2024
@mysk @stroughtonsmith I really want to understand how iPhone Mirroring has anything to do with the DMA or GDPR
Show threadMysk🇨🇦🇩🇪Jun 22, 2024
@jorgesalvador @stroughtonsmith Perhaps Apple is trying to avoid being forced by the DMA to enable iPhone Mirroring between iPhones and, say, Windows.
Show threaddemizeJun 21, 2024
@stroughtonsmith their statement is transparently just "fuck the EU" and I don't know how anyone else can read anything else out of it
Show threadDavid AnsonJun 22, 2024
@stroughtonsmith The potential fines are SO high that a single infraction would be devastating. No competently-managed company will go forward with anything vaguely in doubt.
Show threadDavide Di StefanoJun 22, 2024
@DavidAnson @stroughtonsmith the potential fines are high if you have a team of incompetent lawyers or if you have a team of malicious businessmen that are accustomed to work by lobbying.
Show threadDavid AnsonJun 22, 2024
@dzamir @stroughtonsmith 10-20% of worldwide turnover is super high no matter who’s on your team and however talented they may be.
Show threadDavide Di StefanoJun 22, 2024
@DavidAnson @stroughtonsmith there’s 0% risk of this happening if you care about it not happening, it’s not like you do a small error in your implementation and they give you the major fine
Show threadDavide Di StefanoJun 22, 2024
@DavidAnson @stroughtonsmith at the same time even me, an incompetent in laws, can read the DMA and suggest to Apple a strategy to implement it without issues.
The problem is that they are trying as hard as they can to find escamotages and ways to keep the status quo (that it’s the opposite of what the DMA wants)
Show threadDavid AnsonJun 22, 2024
@dzamir @stroughtonsmith If they decide a new feature is anti-competitive, the company is sunk. Maybe screen mirroring is problematic because you can’t share to Windows. Boom, fine. Or because you can’t share to Android. Boom, fine. Or maybe you just can’t share to some really old version of Android. Boom, fine. There’s no way to know ahead of time and that means any innovation could result in a fine. Nobody wants to run a company like that and shareholders will revolt if there ever is a fine.
Show threadMarcus Marcius MarcellusJun 22, 2024
@stroughtonsmith @DavidAnson I believe that may be, as the young people say, not bug but feature.
Show threadKarl BaronJun 22, 2024

@stroughtonsmith Yeah it's very clear how to abide by it.

Whats difficult is how to pretend to abide by it but use enough loopholes so that you're actually not.

Show threadAndrés Pizá BückmannJun 22, 2024
@stroughtonsmith Why release more features if that might bring more fines for noncompliance? It’s better to wait for the EU to tell you if you are complying and what you need to do to comply
Show threadnutbunniesJun 22, 2024
@stroughtonsmith Every time I see some people (well really one prominent person) act like the spirit of the law is some ever changing, vague thing that nobody could possibly grok, my eyes roll so hard they risk falling out of my head
Show threadThom BullockJun 22, 2024
@stroughtonsmith Law doesn’t work like that, though. “Don’t be a dick” assumes both parties have the same broad societal interest at heart, which is manifestly untrue here.
Show threadMarcus Marcius MarcellusJun 22, 2024

@myNameIsT @stroughtonsmith Precisely so.

Society can, and often (OK; sometimes) does, work like that.

Law is what we have step in when the parties have genuinely incompatible conceptions of nondickishness; or when one of them is straight-up a dick.*

* Which by no means rules out the other being a dick as well.