Apiary
Google has slowly changed how it displays driving directions to limit routes to ones it thinks burn less fuel. When plugging in the drive to get to my parents it presents one option that uses a ferry. The directions treat the ferry like a bridge that you could use at any time, and it no longer presents alternate routes that use actual roads.
The ferry runs twice a day.
Jun 21, 2024 at 10:28amWeb
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
Even better. On my phone it presents an alternative. That takes a different ferry that only runs once a day.
Show threadCybarbieJun 21, 2024
@Apiary 'Fun' fact: marine fuel is unregulated sludge, can even have lead in it. Very dirty, very inefficient and accounts for about 2% global CO2 emissions.
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@nf3xn coastal areas tend to be more regulated when it comes to emissions, but I actually don’t know if this area has marine fuel regulations.
Show threadCybarbieJun 21, 2024
@Apiary Marine fuel is largely unregulated, it is the dirtiest fuel on earth, and gets leaked into the sea. It even has lead in it. We should go back to sail... with robot sailors. The "Taylor Swift's PJs" warriors (if genuine) efforts would be much better focused here.
Show threadabadideaJun 21, 2024
@Apiary I want to reboggle this but I want to check if that would be even more irritating
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@0xabad1dea i am fine with retooting. 👍
Show threadacbJun 21, 2024
@Apiary Does Apple Maps work any better these days?
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@acb maybe? I used to really dislike the way it looked, so I’ve never really used it.
Show threadRihards OlupsJun 21, 2024
@Apiary @acb OSM based solutions?
Show threadideogramJun 22, 2024
@richlv
Exactly what I thought. OSM+
@Apiary @acb
Show threadsenJun 21, 2024
@acb @Apiary As an anecdote, a couple of days ago I sent a colleague an address where I would meet them, I got there with Apple Maps directing me, and my colleague was directed by Google Maps to the top of the hill next to where we needed to be.
Show threadsenJun 21, 2024
@acb @Apiary Base issue, over here in regional Australia at least, is that Google Maps will have a “centre” of an address and direct users to the closest reachable point to it, Apple Maps will direct users to the the street-front of the address.
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@acb in this case shows ferry route first, and the two main land routes as alternates
Show threadjohnaldisJun 21, 2024
@acb @Apiary It’s certainly been getting better over time, in my experience. But I think it’s very location-dependent. It was a bit hit-and-miss in Sicily, at best.
Show threadJamie McCarthyJun 21, 2024

@Apiary This malfeature got me real good in a foreign country. It was starting to get dark, and I was using a rental-car nav (not Google/Apple Maps). It took me to a dock that was closed for the season. Took a long time to drive around that lake. Made it to the inn minutes before they closed for the night.

In Google Maps it’s in [Tap your avatar] > Settings > Navigation > Route Options.

Everyone should check this, and recheck it before a long trip.

Show threadkgoetzJun 21, 2024
@jamiemccarthy @Apiary I don't have that setting in maps yet, thanks for the heads up!
Show threadSlimJun 21, 2024
@Apiary
Show threadLance, Enjoying Copious PollenJun 21, 2024
@Apiary Artificial "intelligence" at work.
Show threadÖlbaumJun 21, 2024

@Apiary Last summer I was in London, and a friend was driving some place North West of the city. Google Maps was constantly changing the route to avoid “traffic jams,” making us leave the main street, take a side road, then come back, rinse and repeat.

Those were not traffic jams, they were regular, non jammed traffic lights. Google Maps was diverting us to the side of the intersection that was currently green. Of course, by the time we reached it, it was red, and our original street was green.

Show threadDominic 🇪🇺 🏳️‍🌈 🇺🇦Jun 21, 2024
@oscherler @Apiary I recall someone actually took the time to compare Google Maps, Apple Maps, and Waze. IIRC Waze was the most optimistic, Google the most aggressive about trying to avoid traffic, and Apple gave the most precise estimates.
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@oscherler this is one of the main reasons why I still use a human navigator. Turn by turn directions sometimes forget all sorts of practical info.
Show threadSemitonesJun 21, 2024

@Apiary That's annoying! When they rolled eco-routes out, it came with an option to disable it. Does that still work? (I wish it could be turned off per-destination https://lifeofanearthmuffin.com/2021/11/how-to-turn-on-and-off-the-google-maps-eco-route.html

I was on a road trip recently and for a while we had two phones using Google maps navigating us through NYC. They were giving us significantly different directions. So we assumed that they must spread people out to avoid creating traffic too...

How to Turn On and Off the Google Maps Eco Route Feature

A post about how to turn on and off the Google Maps eco route feature, including step by step instructions to increase fuel-efficiency

Life of an Earth Muffin
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@semitones i’m pretty sure they started doing that sometime after they bought waze.
Show threadTHIS ACCOUNT HAS MOVEDJun 21, 2024
@Apiary sounds like AI
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@noplasticshower if we’re using AI like we use the word bots.
Show threadTHIS ACCOUNT HAS MOVEDJun 21, 2024
@Apiary yeah. Misused for sure. But you just know they sprinkled some more ML into their routing algorithm.
Show threadAurora - NOW celestiallavendar@icedoatmilk@coffeeJun 21, 2024
@Apiary In case you didn't know you can go into the settings and turn off "allow ferries" to prevent it from suggesting routes that use a ferry. And you can also turn off suggesting fuel efficient routes.

Like obviously Google is broken and they gotta fix it, but at least if you turn off all the smart settings you could get back to suggesting functional routes.
Show threadNick 'The Viking'Jun 21, 2024

@Apiary

On my Android phone, have noticed a distinct enshittification.

Stops following guidance, no prompts no 'lost satellite' announcements.

Nonsensical routes and route options.

Factual errors of location.

This is recent, maybe last two months

Show threadTimjanJun 21, 2024
@nlarson830 @Apiary
On mine, it has stopped saying the street names, so now everything is "turn right" (here are three driveways, one side street and finally one with a traffic light; from memorizing the map I know I want to turn at the traffic light) or "turn left" (when?)
Show threadEllenInEdmonton Jun 21, 2024
@Apiary Not sure if you have an iPhone but these days, I find the Apple Maps suggestions to be much better than Google's. Realistic information about ferry timing too.
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@EllenInEdmonton Apple also doesn’t have ferry timing for this route. I think the problem is they’ve both classified the ferry as a form of toll road.
Show threadEllenInEdmonton Jun 21, 2024
@Apiary That's unfortunate. If you know the timing of the ferries, you can adjust your travel times accordingly or else take the land route. In my case, both ferries ran back and forth consistently.
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@EllenInEdmonton yeah, I know the route pretty well. I just use google maps for timing estimates. This is an ocean ferry that takes 2.5 hours to cross. It’s probably not something the developers thought about, that’s all. And maybe I’ll use it this time. Who knows.
Show threadEllenInEdmonton Jun 21, 2024
@Apiary Rome2Rio is a website I’ve used a lot for overseas travel and I love how many options it gives you to get from point A to point B, using transit, train, plane, and vehicle with timing and cost for all the options. I haven’t tried it in North America though.
Show threadChris 🌱 Jun 21, 2024
@Apiary I get the idea of encouraging less fuel usage, but this doesn't seem like a well thought-out plan on Google's end 😅
Show threadAllen MorrisJun 21, 2024
@Apiary You need better ferry service obviously.
Show thread🇺🇸 🇺🇦 🇮🇱 🐧 🥦Jun 21, 2024

@Apiary

I have a similar situation with the drive to my stepmother's home. The longer way is easier and faster.

Maybe the corrupt dipshits at Google should think in terms of advising people instead of dictating to them what to do by withholding information.

#PaloAltoSchmucks

Show threadAllan EngelhardtJun 21, 2024
@Apiary I think it is an option
Show threadJohn LoughlinJun 21, 2024

@Apiary @pluralistic

I confess that I wonder how many PhDs it took to work out that algorithm.

Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@JohnLoughlin @pluralistic it works fine for continuously running short ferries. The problem is they class these big ocean going ferries as toll roads.
Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@Apiary I wish I could say that any of the #OpenStreetMap based apps would be a nice alternative, but I'm not sure if any takes such data in account, and I'm even less sure if such data is in OSM to begin with (open hours are, but IIRC time tables are not).
Show threadDanielJun 21, 2024

@mdione @Apiary I know OSRM and Valhalla (probably GraphHopper, too) technically can route over ferry routes.

But you're right the data is limited and very basic e.g. see what can be tagged here

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dferry

#1 priority for a routing engine would be figuring out if it's usable for a car and when/how often the ferry is going and it's duration.

Some ferries go every 15 minutes or so and only need a few minutes for crossing; others go daily or even less often. Vastly different.

Tag:route=ferry - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@djh (untagging appiary because it's getting technical). I see the only options are duration (good) and interval (not so good). Just like you mention, and the OT says, ferries might run once or twice a day. For those, a time table would be more adapted. Yet, we don't seem to have any tagging like that, do we?
Show threadOzzie D, NP-hard  Jun 24, 2024

@mdione @djh I recently began to use #OrganicMaps on my phone, and I'm gobsmacked by the amount of work its devs and OSM volunteers have put in to making it work so well. Cycling and driving directions in OgMaps typically match up closely with GMaps, but public transport details are much richer in GMaps, at least here in the Boston metro area. Subway stops in OSM often have a link to the "official" page, but no other info (lines, duration, interval, accessibility, etc), and many nodes have no details. (The #MBTA has a public data portal, but I guess auto-import of element details is discouraged.)

Ferries are part of the local public transit system here, but I never use them. Out of curiosity I mapped a route to a ferry terminal in Hingham, ~25 km from my current location. OgMaps/OSM included the ferry in cycling, walking, and public transport routes, but GMaps ignored it in public transport navigation (although it suggested some wacky options, like private bus carriers), even though T -> ferry looks like the second-fastest path (75 minutes) after driving (53 minutes in current traffic). Bike to ferry would take 80 min.

Show threadMarcos DioneJun 25, 2024
@ozdreaming @djh I don't know of any OSM based service that can really compete with gmaps, unluckily. G spends amounts of money/time on it that the communities buildimg these tools can't quite match, and even if for G these might look like cost centers, the amount of info they scrape from them makes them really valuable for them, so I don't expect them to stop investing on them any time soon; same for mail and search at least.
Show threadMatija NalisJun 21, 2024
@mdione
I'm not sure that
@Apiary is requesting routing over ferry taking ferry timetables into account, it more looks to me like they dislike that #googlemaps now FORCES the ferry as the ONLY possible route taking away the alternatives.
And avoiding ferry routes is quite possible in many #OSM routers, e.g. in #OsmAnd you can choose to avoid ferries (among other things, like cobblestone roads or fords or tunnels or toll roads or low emission zones or...).
Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@mnalis @Apiary agreed, but if it took the ferry's timetable, a good router should know that there would be a long wait and other options would be shorter (in time). Unless you specifically asked for the shortest path?
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@mnalis @mdione you can tell google to avoid ferries. But let’s say you aren’t me, and aren’t already familiar with this journey. You might assume that a) the ferry is the only option and b) that the ferry will be available when you get to the dock.
Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@Apiary @mnalis as a person working in computers, I'm really sad about the state of things. We've encroached into every aspect of life, and now people trust the outcomes of our collective delirium. We call ourselves Engineers, but our profession is very far from other Engineerings. We try to model the world, but the world is too varied, and too big, so of course we don't know or think about 'corner cases'. People trust our products because they're 'technology', but we don't deserve it.
Show threadMatija NalisJun 22, 2024

@mdione @Apiary
As the Weinberg's Law states: "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

It really should be taught from elementary school about acute fragileness of our civilization dependence on ever more complex technology. Corner cases of map routing are really totally insignificant part of that. One day some tech will break beyond repair, and bring whole civilization down the drain with it. 🤷‍♂️

Show threadNeatNitJun 21, 2024

@Apiary There's an "avoid ferries" option in navigation settings. Waze has it too, as do probably all other navigation apps out there worth their salt.

Actually, there's a chance (albeit a tiny one) that Waze actually would know about ferries' time tables, because it's so much more driving focused than gmaps.

Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@neatnit i also know how to drive home. But people who don’t know the way may think the ferry is the only option.
Show threadGina Intheburg 🇺🇦 🌻 🥥🌴Jun 21, 2024

@Apiary

Sounds like somebody at Google's overdoing the green thing. That's unusual. And you make a great point about how infrequently the ferry runs. Have you pointed this out to Google yet?

Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@ginaintheburg that is Not My Job.
Also the problem is they assume ferries have no timetable. They are labeled as toll roads.
Show threadGina Intheburg 🇺🇦 🌻 🥥🌴Jun 21, 2024

@Apiary
Nope. Absolutely right. Not your job. But it's probably #AI & I think they seek feedback on their searches, as I recall.

But totally your call. Just a suggestion.

Show threadDec [{()}]Jun 22, 2024
@Apiary
Just downstream from the Intel Ireland campus, the Rye Water river flows under an aqueduct. The aqueduct is very tall, and carries a canal and a railway. For some reason, Google Maps doesn't treat this aqueduct as a bridge, and the river seems to stop at the canal. In reality, it flows on, through its own valley, and joins the River Liffey a short distance away. The last section of the river doesn't exist in Google Maps, despite many nearby places with 'Rye' or 'River' in their names.