ApiaryJun 21, 2024
Google has slowly changed how it displays driving directions to limit routes to ones it thinks burn less fuel. When plugging in the drive to get to my parents it presents one option that uses a ferry. The directions treat the ferry like a bridge that you could use at any time, and it no longer presents alternate routes that use actual roads.
The ferry runs twice a day.
Show threadMarcos Dione
@Apiary I wish I could say that any of the #OpenStreetMap based apps would be a nice alternative, but I'm not sure if any takes such data in account, and I'm even less sure if such data is in OSM to begin with (open hours are, but IIRC time tables are not).
Jun 21, 2024 at 4:43pmWeb
Show threadDanielJun 21, 2024

@mdione @Apiary I know OSRM and Valhalla (probably GraphHopper, too) technically can route over ferry routes.

But you're right the data is limited and very basic e.g. see what can be tagged here

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dferry

#1 priority for a routing engine would be figuring out if it's usable for a car and when/how often the ferry is going and it's duration.

Some ferries go every 15 minutes or so and only need a few minutes for crossing; others go daily or even less often. Vastly different.

Tag:route=ferry - OpenStreetMap Wiki

Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@djh (untagging appiary because it's getting technical). I see the only options are duration (good) and interval (not so good). Just like you mention, and the OT says, ferries might run once or twice a day. For those, a time table would be more adapted. Yet, we don't seem to have any tagging like that, do we?
Show threadOzzie D, NP-hard  Jun 24, 2024

@mdione @djh I recently began to use #OrganicMaps on my phone, and I'm gobsmacked by the amount of work its devs and OSM volunteers have put in to making it work so well. Cycling and driving directions in OgMaps typically match up closely with GMaps, but public transport details are much richer in GMaps, at least here in the Boston metro area. Subway stops in OSM often have a link to the "official" page, but no other info (lines, duration, interval, accessibility, etc), and many nodes have no details. (The #MBTA has a public data portal, but I guess auto-import of element details is discouraged.)

Ferries are part of the local public transit system here, but I never use them. Out of curiosity I mapped a route to a ferry terminal in Hingham, ~25 km from my current location. OgMaps/OSM included the ferry in cycling, walking, and public transport routes, but GMaps ignored it in public transport navigation (although it suggested some wacky options, like private bus carriers), even though T -> ferry looks like the second-fastest path (75 minutes) after driving (53 minutes in current traffic). Bike to ferry would take 80 min.

Show threadMarcos DioneJun 25, 2024
@ozdreaming @djh I don't know of any OSM based service that can really compete with gmaps, unluckily. G spends amounts of money/time on it that the communities buildimg these tools can't quite match, and even if for G these might look like cost centers, the amount of info they scrape from them makes them really valuable for them, so I don't expect them to stop investing on them any time soon; same for mail and search at least.
Show threadMatija NalisJun 21, 2024
@mdione
I'm not sure that
@Apiary is requesting routing over ferry taking ferry timetables into account, it more looks to me like they dislike that #googlemaps now FORCES the ferry as the ONLY possible route taking away the alternatives.
And avoiding ferry routes is quite possible in many #OSM routers, e.g. in #OsmAnd you can choose to avoid ferries (among other things, like cobblestone roads or fords or tunnels or toll roads or low emission zones or...).
Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@mnalis @Apiary agreed, but if it took the ferry's timetable, a good router should know that there would be a long wait and other options would be shorter (in time). Unless you specifically asked for the shortest path?
Show threadApiaryJun 21, 2024
@mnalis @mdione you can tell google to avoid ferries. But let’s say you aren’t me, and aren’t already familiar with this journey. You might assume that a) the ferry is the only option and b) that the ferry will be available when you get to the dock.
Show threadMarcos DioneJun 21, 2024
@Apiary @mnalis as a person working in computers, I'm really sad about the state of things. We've encroached into every aspect of life, and now people trust the outcomes of our collective delirium. We call ourselves Engineers, but our profession is very far from other Engineerings. We try to model the world, but the world is too varied, and too big, so of course we don't know or think about 'corner cases'. People trust our products because they're 'technology', but we don't deserve it.
Show threadMatija NalisJun 22, 2024

@mdione @Apiary
As the Weinberg's Law states: "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

It really should be taught from elementary school about acute fragileness of our civilization dependence on ever more complex technology. Corner cases of map routing are really totally insignificant part of that. One day some tech will break beyond repair, and bring whole civilization down the drain with it. 🤷‍♂️