Mastodawn

markener Dec 5, 2023

Richard Littler

This is no reflection on Wonka specifically, but...
FFS: Invest. In. New. Stories.
The last 30 years have seen remake after remake after reboot after prequel after spin-off.
So much of mainstream culture has become creatively timorous yet rapacious in its goal to milk intellectual properties dry.
Modern mainstream culture sometimes feels like a karaoke bar. Actually, an ouroboros in a karaoke bar. A never-ending cycle of consuming and re-consuming itself.

Richard Littler Dec 5, 2023

I don't object to individual productions as such, it's just that culture has become reliant on remakes/reboots to the detriment of creative evolution/progression. It's stunted and risks becoming monoculture.

JL Roberson Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler Once capitalist realism became the norm, it's inevitable that creativity is encouraged to only reshuffle the property(or junk) some company already owns.
That could be argued to be all postmodernism really was
PS This is why the early 90s is the last time we saw much that was new, and why our pop culture has remained kind of static since then, aside from technological changes(that only made the reshuffling more endemic)

@Richard_Littler
i think it is something to do with copyrights coming to an end - remaking a film extends the copyright again - and that might be secondary to all the merch income the studios would lose.

IanMoore3000 Dec 5, 2023

@simoncox @Richard_Littler that *might* be true for Willy Wonka but it's hardly the case for the endless iterations of Trek Wars, MCU stuff and Dr Who that clog up big and small screens.

random thoughts Dec 5, 2023

@simoncox @Richard_Littler
Copyrights / filming rights is only a small part of the cost of a movie unless it's a very big franchise. I still think the problem is studios playing it 'safe'.

Marvel movies are collapsing so let's see what's going to be the next big thing.

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@simoncox @Richard_Littler also they want to I’m introduce the story to a new generation of Children / people

Charlie Stross Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler It's money-driven, innit? TV costs £0.5-3M/hour of running time to produce; movies are more like £50-100M/hour. So *nothing* gets made until the accountants green-light it, and they won't approve of anything new that isn't focus-grouped to hell, and recycling an IP with a proven track record is a safer bet than trying something new.

(FX: weeps over a pile of non-existent TV rights residuals after ~20+ years of media rights to 30+ books going nowhere.)

Bob Thomson Dec 5, 2023

@cstross @Richard_Littler Gen X bias alert but what was different in the 80s when we saw original stories get made? Is it the corporatisation? Seemed like that started then with big conglomerates buying movie studios. Of course the 80s was the beginning of franchises and sequel-a-gogo too.

Charlie Stross Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 @Richard_Littler Corporatisation was the big thing—it happened in book publishing, too, as dozens of small publishers got hoovered up into the Big Six (currently down to the Big Five, soon to be the Big Four) multinational conglomerates. Film and TV similarly. Also note the rise of spin-off markets such as toys, pioneered by George Lucas, which made big hits vastly more lucrative.

Advanced Persistent Teapot Dec 5, 2023

@cstross @bobthomson70 @Richard_Littler also viewers expect higher production values now, employees and governments expect better safety, lots of things have contributed to increasing costs. Try running an 80s script past a modern audience and see how enthusiastically they respond (be ready to dodge the rotten fruit)

Bob Thomson Dec 5, 2023

@http_error_418 @cstross @Richard_Littler what I also find interesting is there seemed to be more 90 mins and done films in the 80s. You'd have to think the trend for 2-3 hour epics, particularly those with lots of VFX shots also makes things way more expensive than they need to be.

Gary Parker Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 @http_error_418 @cstross @Richard_Littler printing and distribution (literally physical distribution) of large canisters of film was a lot more expensive than shoving bits down a fibre to a cinema (or even HDDs in flight cases). Longer movies are cheaper and easier to distribute nowadays

Gary Parker Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 @http_error_418 @cstross @Richard_Littler look at the concept of “roadshows” in the 20th century. Your really long movies (and stuff that used whacky multiple projector setups) would have limited print runs, and instead of simultaneous nationwide releases the print would tour around the country, and it would be a big event if a roadshow movie came to town

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@http_error_418 @cstross @bobthomson70 @Richard_Littler yes the CGI gets more and expensive by the movie I sometimes miss movies with practical effects

Bob Thomson Dec 5, 2023

@Yaminosenshi there's an interesting video I watched the other day analysing the CGI in Attack of the Clones which makes the point many times about how the CGI artists are expected to do more and more with fewer and fewer resources in money and people and time. Reminiscent of the exploitative nature of the games industry.

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 there was a situation of overworking CG artists quite recently at Disney more specifically Marvel it got so worse the Quality of the CGI at the recent marvel shows and movies got worse so they fired the lady responsible for that department and cut down on projects. She also had shown signs of toxic workplace behavior

Marc Etienne Dec 5, 2023

@cstross @bobthomson70 @Richard_Littler the sequels trend of the early 1980s was one factor, but an overlooked one was when United Artists bet the farm and lost on Heaven's Gate, a movie that flopped and killed the biggest artist-driven studio. The others then saw the accountants take over, giving us Jaws III, Rocky III, Halloween and Friday the Thirteenth series, and so on.

random thoughts Dec 5, 2023

@cstross @bobthomson70 @Richard_Littler

Toy markets - the reason why we have 16780546451 reboots of the Gundam story.

Francis 🇾🇪 🏳️‍🌈 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 @cstross @Richard_Littler
I think it's about attempting to guarantee a return, this means very little new is risked, unless it's stuff like Sandman, or twee stuff that's cheap to make.

Bob Thomson Dec 5, 2023

@francis it's just kind of wild to think of the massive hits of the past that were original scripts. Maybe it was easier to land such a hit in past decades than now.

Francis 🇾🇪 🏳️‍🌈 🏳️‍⚧️Dec 5, 2023

@bobthomson70 Lots of hits means lots of misses. Misses mean you get fired by the monez.

IanMoore3000 Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler one of the things that really annoys me about fandom is how willing fans are to lap up endless regurgitations of the same products. I agree that not all remakes, sequels and prequels are bad but it signifies a depressing conservatism that people are so willing to plod through the latest franchise iteration.

Kev Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler I can't help but feel this was made only because timothée chalamet exists

JA Westenberg Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler An absolute dearth of new intellectual property. And the death of risk. The creative industries have truly just become mass-scale content factories.

Itwasntme Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler tungsten agree. Seems there is no production appetite for risk or championing new original creatives. This’ll make even for sure on familiarity and affection value, and we’ll skim on the profit - that’s the model. Independent cinema is collectively creative, passionate and sophisticated. Some fresh air is always wonderful.

@Richard_Littler
I've found myself going more into foreign language films and TV as a result where there seems to be a great deal of new stories to be told. I wasn't tired of films, I was tired of Hollywood.

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@SHODAN @Richard_Littler yea me too there are so many interesting K and J-dramas on Netflix alone also Anime ok right now you have a lot of Isekai Anime’s in various qualities but there is still some Anime’s who aren’t in that genre

spmatich vk3spm

@Richard_Littler it's a vehicle to deliver Timothée Chalamet to his legions of admirers. Milking them in the process. The 'story' is not important. Clearly. Once upon a time it was Johnny Depp that studios made endless remakes under the guise of pirates of the something. The story wasn't important then either.

Bleistifterin Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler amen

AlinskyDidNothingWrong Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler "There is no such thing as a new idea. It is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations. We keep on turning and making new combinations indefinitely; but they are the same old pieces of colored glass that have been in use through all the ages." Mark Twain

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@WNC_Wobbly @Richard_Littler I once read a manga and one of the characters said all story’s are already been told it’s now just an rearranging of those old story’s we have since fairytales and mythology got written down

Cymphoni Fantastique Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler this. I felt like I was going crazy constantly seeing the same stuff.

Steve Jones Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler 'salright. Soon it'll all be AI generated pablum.

tootbrute Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler how can they hope to improve on the Gene Wilder willy wonka. no way. give up ffs.

Trez13 Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler You are so right! I think this is one of the reasons I've enjoyed Reservation Dogs so much--the storyline(s) were totally new to me. I'm tired of the same old tropes. I know people are writing "new" stuff, it's just not getting made.

WraithGear Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler i wouldn’t look to the Hollywood machine for innovation or unique story telling. Its the same with video games and the AAA space. The true art is in the indie scene. And sometimes a plucky small troup will get some funding, but will not get the marketing they deserve. Only word of mouth can give them the spotlight they need.

Bored Baby Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler I'm just thankful A24 exists

your_huckleberry Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler oh man. You know who was the worst at this kind of thing? Shakespeare. The guy only ever produced reboots and sequels. Like, dude, do we really need another Hamlet?

Yami no senshi Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler they simply play it save now with all fhe CGI moves get more expensive t. produce every year s. they finance just stuff they know works & got brand recognition. Hollywood is done y. find more creativity in Japan, South Korea & Europe nowadays. In Anime alone y. find something interesting every season. Ok right right now they have an abundance of Isekai (Anime and Manga about guys/girls die & get reborn into JRPG like Fantasy worlds) but there is still offer stuff

Dudula the Dud Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler No originality exists, it seems.

Nazani Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler Let's take everything weird & ominous out of a Roald Dahl story! That'll sell more candy!

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler just look outside mainstream, try boosting smaller film-makers. There is weird stuff out there like Diani & Devine Meet the Apocalypse or Motivational Growth for instance. (Partially funded via Kickstarter.)

ScaredyCat Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler This isn't a remake really, it's an origin story.

Ian Channing 🦈Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler is the number of newly written films per year falling? This seems like the kind of list I'm thinking of https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/2020-spec-script-market-analysis-85756f147761

Phil Rees Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler Let's keep mainstream away from the good stuff. They'd ruin it.

https://youtu.be/FPWBaKBYUfw?si=C5pwkBixGNRu4P_h

'Mami Wata' (2023) Movie Trailer - Mermaid Goddess of West Afrika

YouTube

Jill Minor Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler I guess people are a more likely audience of a known quantity. Same reason they read millions upon millions of JPat novels. Probably holds true for international audiences even more.

Eric S Burdon Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler A Youtube channel - Some More News - I watch has talked a little about why we're running into repeats (with a few original ideas).

Other commenters mentioned this but a lot of it has to do with massive IPs and dedicated fanbases. For a few decades, big box office movies were either Harry Potter films or a Marvel movie.

Nostalgia, copyright, and capitalism are all kinda blended together, but I think the other reason is to get people back to theatres too.

Eric S Burdon Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler The only issue with that is once we get so damn tired of the repeats or realize we're basically fed the same plot with only different names, faces, and locations, we're starting to lose interest.

It's why this year, films like Mario, Barbie and Oppenheimer were insanely good despite getting usual box office super stars like Indiana Jones, and other Marvel IPs.

Nini Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler The fear of the potential of failure looms large in the minds of major studio heads. The AMPTP proved they're incredibly afraid of new ideas and would do a lot to neuter them in favour of the same undifferentiated slurry that makes up culture because it's safe and profitable. Capitalism of course is the problem and fresh new ideas still are out there, just the two things are incompatible like matter and anti-matter.

jastity Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler

I don’t watch movies so have no skin in the game, but I’m reminded of how many midsummer nights dreams I’ve seen, or Hamlets, or Carmens. How is it different?

Philip John Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler But but but how do we "grow"?! If we haven't got "growth" what's the point?!

...or so the detractors would scream. A little dose of #degrowth would help, I think.

Jay Tea Moriarty Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler Unfortunately a well wrapped story sells better and is warmer regarded then a new thing out of a shiny box.

Where would you place Bladerunner 2049? It's original content but for a very old movie, so it feels rebooty while being technically the next entry in the series.

I have no idea about Wonka but I do think the modern capabilities of movie and graphics lends themselves to wanting a remake of old stories. This has always happened, ever since Tolkien showed the world how to do fantasy (big, world changing) - every other fantasy story must lower its head to lotr in some way (even the so claimed opposite sides of fantasy, as they have LotR to reflect themselves off of).

The brand new content is the largely user created, free to publish stuff, like all the indy writers/ebooks, because access to publishing is so easy now, and to a smaller degree the shows being made on streaming services, who can fork out money to see how a short season goes before dedicating to a bigger budget. I'm thinking like Bojack Horseman and Big Mouth (not to promote Netflix, but they are my fav adult cartoons).

The new stories on a grand scale (like Wonka's presence but by an unknown individual) aren't sure hits, so they don't get the budget to advertise as well, so reach is very limited.

As an example, Hoyts Australia buys "packages" of movies, say they want an Aussie movie, but it'll be 1 movie in a packet with 9 usa movie. The chance for that Australian movie to shine is minimised by the skew in country of origin (plus people seem to think Aussie stories suck, or are full of kangaroos, spider, and death).

Interesting topic though! It's a good chew, always has been, and it leads to the next:

Is something good just because it's totally original? I mean, I still love Beowulf, and every one eats up historical fiction, very old stories. But "The Great" is a brilliant show, which they admit is "sometimes" based on the truth.

Ty, my 2 cents, take as you like =)

AutistiCritic Dec 5, 2023

@Richard_Littler @Emmacox Agreed. I don’t care how good it may be, I have zero interest in seeing it. 🫤

JohnW Dec 6, 2023

@Richard_Littler

A side effect of the dumbing down of our society. Mainstream entertainment is in a deficit of creative inspiration.

I should also note that this is a big benefit for lesser known creators as people will start drifting away from mainstream and looking elsewhere.

eribosot Dec 6, 2023

@Richard_Littler The best explanation I've seen for this phenomenon is in the Red Letter Media review of JJ Abrams' Star Trek (2009): movies today have to compete for the customer's attention against a huge number of other distractions. Reusing familiar stories and characters has a much better chance of turning a profit than introducing unfamiliar ones. Cultural pessimists might blame capitalism and branding for this, but actually, Shakespeare rehashed old stories too.

RenderB Dec 6, 2023

@Richard_Littler I just don't see the point in remakes etc, in general, apart from very specific cases such as video games that never got properly finished.

Even with tv shows that got dropped on a cliffhanger etc, going back decades later to do it over just doesn't work.
heck I don't even like books that get "finished" posthumously by someone else because of the tonal/style mismatch.

Often a sequel just ruins what was a clean, well told and wrapped up story.