Mastodawn

bappity Sep 9, 2023

Wladimir Palant

We are currently witnessing the fallout from monopolization in the browser space. Back in 2007, Internet Explorer received much criticism for its phishing protection mechanism which transmitted all visited websites to Microsoft servers. Mozilla paired up with Google and designed a different system which performed most checks locally and preserved users’ privacy. That’s what healthy competition looks like.

Fast forward to 2023. Almost all web browsers in use are either Chrome or based on the Chromium browser engine. With the competition pretty much eliminated, Google is now pushing its “Enhanced Safe Browsing” down everyone’s throats – which is a nice sounding name for “every website you visit is sent to our servers.” The Internet Explorer approach from 2007 all over again, only that now it’s Google getting all this data. And they certainly won’t do anything evil with it. Yeah, sure.

Reminder: Firefox and Safari are the only remaining browsers worth noting which are not using Google’s browser engine.

#Chrome #Google #Mozilla #privacy

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-is-enabling-chrome-real-time-phishing-protection-for-everyone/

Google is enabling Chrome real-time phishing protection for everyone

Google announced today that it is bringing additional security to the Google Chrome standard Safe Browsing feature by enabling real-time phishing protection for all users.

BleepingComputer

Robert von Burg

@WPalant i finally made the switch back to #Firefox. It's #webdev tools are quite lacking, but it is much better performance wise and thus can handle my tab load adequately.

Philip Sep 8, 2023

@eitch @WPalant I haven’t dig into the guts of chrome’s dev tools but haven’t had issue with Firefox’s so off be keen to learn what I’m apparently missing out on. I’ve heard this sentiment from others. How is it lacking?

Robert von Burg

@mez @WPalant sorry for the late reply. So i just compared the two again and i must say i can't find my old gripes: bad layout of the request responses, bad layout of the debugger. And loading polymer 1.x apps with many requests seems far smoother than some time ago.

I guess they cleaned up the dev tools and i will now try and switch to Firefox for web dev as well!

Andrea Lazzarotto Sep 21, 2023

@mez @eitch @WPalant quite the opposite, especially the CSS part is quite easier to use on Firefox.

Wladimir Palant Sep 21, 2023

@lazza @mez @eitch I’m using both quite frequently, and I don’t see big differences. Yes, the “Storage” tab from Firefox is “Application” in Chrome which doesn’t seem logical – but one gets used to it. And Chrome doesn’t have UI to replay network requests, one has to copy fetch() parameters instead. All in all, the functionality is very similar however. The only notable difference for me was WebSockets, looking at their traffic is currently really awkward in Firefox.

Robert von Burg

@WPalant @lazza @mez a one click button to clear a page's storage would be awesome though. And yes the websocket UI could be nicer, but I'll get used to it

Wladimir Palant Sep 22, 2023

@eitch @lazza @mez Oh, never realized that Chrome has that button. 😅 Yes, that’s useful.

Hippo 🍉Oct 2, 2023

@mez @eitch @WPalant I've been using Firefox dev tools since #Firebug days and find Chrome's weird and cumbersome 🐞

Probably just me though; I don't use them deeply enough to actually feel the feature differences so it's mainly about what I'm used to 😛

Robert von Burg

@badrihippo @mez @WPalant hehe, well I've been using them intensely too, but i guess when one is accustomed to something... =))

Nathan Wray Sep 15, 2023

@eitch @WPalant Been running Firefox on Android for some time and honestly it's been completely uneventful.

Robert von Burg

@wren @WPalant yeah, on Android it's always been smooth. It's on the desktop with my many open tabs and web dev that was not that great, but seems to be quite good now

@WPalant I always encourage (actually force) my family to use Firefox instead of that evil Google's product cuz I'm afraid to see the fall of Firefox and other non-chromium browsers.

BlackIkeEagle Sep 8, 2023

@WPalant @Vivaldi is based on chromium, but it removes these invasive "features".

Rusty Corgi Sep 9, 2023

@WPalant Poor Epiphany and Konqueror

blobfoxgooglycry

They really aren't worth noting though.

Wladimir Palant Sep 9, 2023

@Rusty No, sadly not really worth noting.

Elisabeth M Sep 14, 2023

@Rusty @WPalant Why not? Why poor?

Rusty Corgi Sep 14, 2023

@independentpen @WPalant They just don't have much of a usage share, so bringing them up usually just elicits confusion from people.

Cendyne Sep 14, 2023

@Rusty what if Konqueror got webauthn support

Claude Sep 14, 2023

@Rusty ooh, I'm using Plasma on my laptop and didn't even realized Konqueror is still active... I should try it. @WPalant

Levi Sep 9, 2023

@WPalant and what's the take on Firefox forks? I switched to Librewolf the other day and it's been pretty nice so far.

Wladimir Palant Sep 10, 2023

@levi Whatever floats your boat. 🤷‍♂️

OpticalNail 🇵🇸Sep 14, 2023

@levi @WPalant Librewolf is, in my opinion, one of your best options, if not *the* best. I do not know any other browser (other than Tor & the gang) that is as good as librewolf when it comes to privacy.
Also, for mobile, Mull is a similar thing, privacy-oriented ff fork.

Dan Goodin Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant I'm feeling better and better about my decision a year ago to move from Chrome to Firefox. My only regret: Firefox STILL doesn't support passkeys.

William Johnston Sep 14, 2023

@dangoodin @WPalant Not quite the same thing, but 1Password's beta Firefox extension supports storing passkeys in 1Password. Seems to work pretty well.

Elisabeth M Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant What do you think about Gnome Web?

Wladimir Palant Sep 14, 2023

@independentpen Gnome Web and Epiphany are the same thing. It’s the browser engine used in Safari. The browser itself is sadly barely used, even among the people using Gnome. It’s one of those niche browsers barely contributing to diversity in the browser space.

Elisabeth M Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant So aside from its poor adoption rate, the browser is otherwise pretty good re: performance and privacy?

Wladimir Palant Sep 14, 2023

@independentpen I have no idea, and I doubt that anyone really bothered checking for a browser that is barely used.

Elisabeth M Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant Okay, thanks. I'm considering Librem for my next laptop, which comes with Gnome/Epiphany; hence my question

OtherRetroMatt Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant Vivaldi should get a mention. It's better than Safari/Firefox and has better advanced privacy controls.

Wladimir Palant Sep 14, 2023

@OtherRetroMatt It’s the same Chromium engine, which limits severely how much they can do. In theory, they can do whatever modifications they like – but the effort for any non-trivial changes is enormous (consider the effort to maintain these changes with new browser releases every six weeks), and they will have to choose their battles.

Binary Large Octopus Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant And while we're at it, let's not forget that Google isn't just using Chrome to be shitty to users, but to take the whole Web hostage: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/web-environment-integrity-is-an-all-out-attack-on-the-free-internet
#google #wei

"Web Environment Integrity" is an all-out attack on the free Internet — Free Software Foundation — Working together for free software

Feoh Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant And Firefox has improved by leaps and bounds in the last few years.

It's fast, remarkably bug free for an open source project, and has a super robust ecosystem of extensions.

I switched back and have been very favorably impressed.

Jennifer Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant I used Brave on my laptop for a long time until I learned about their terrible CEO. Now I use the Duck Duck Go browser. What about that? I've also used DDG on my phone for years.

JamesGecko Sep 15, 2023

@Jennifer @WPalant The DuckDuckGo browser uses the webview API from the host OS. On Windows that means Blink, the rendering engine from Chrome. On macOS that's WebKit, derived from Safari.
https://spreadprivacy.com/windows-browser-open-beta/
https://spreadprivacy.com/duckduckgo-for-mac-open-beta/

DuckDuckGo's Windows browser now in public beta

Declutter the Internet with the DuckDuckGo Browser.

Spread Privacy

Diana Payne Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant Hello? DuckDuckGo.

Wladimir Palant Sep 14, 2023

@Moocher DuckDuckGo browser is also based on Chromium. This means the same caveats as I mentioned about Vivaldi: https://infosec.exchange/@WPalant/111065095469297710

Yellow Flag (@[email protected])

@[email protected] It’s the same Chromium engine, which limits severely how much they can do. In theory, they can do whatever modifications they like – but the effort for any non-trivial changes is enormous (consider the effort to maintain these changes with new browser releases every six weeks), and they will have to choose their battles.

Infosec Exchange

Diana Payne Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant I used to use Firefox but it kept crashing. Then I was directed to use Chrome by the people I work for (I work from home). But I've always used DuckDuckGo, believing it to be one of the least snoopy ones. I think schools favour it.

Tobias Winnerling Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant Never trust a company that feels the need to actively assure you that it is, really, definitely, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die NOT evil.

Mastodon Migration Sep 14, 2023

@t_winnerling @WPalant Think they backed off on that a few years ago and are now firmly embracing the "be evil" corporate mantra.

millionsofplayers

@WPalant @soafen And they’re gonna get away with it too with how normalized data collection is today

Repeating something I said elsewhere... all the Blink-based non-Chrome browsers - Vivaldi etc - should fork Chromium and maintain it together. Several of them have already said they'll be disabling Google's spyware; they should just rip it out entirely so people know it's actually gone.

I use Firefox, but anything that gets people away from Chrome would be a positive for the web at large.

Richard W. Woodley ELBOWS UP 🇨🇦🌹🚴‍♂️📷 🗺️Sep 14, 2023

@WPalant
Started with Mosaic, then Netscape and from there to Firefox. Tried to stay away from browsers beholden to corporate giants.

yunchtime Sep 14, 2023

what do you think of Brave and Opera? I use pretty much everything, from Edge to Seamonkey. The only one's I really hate are Safari and IE. But Brave and Opera seem pretty tight.

Wladimir Palant Sep 15, 2023

@yunchtime Concerning Brave: https://www.spacebar.news/p/stop-using-brave-browser

And Opera has been bought by a Chinese company which is in the business of selling users’ data.

If you really want a Chromium-based browser, Vivaldi or DuckDuckGo are the ones with a good reputation. But they also cannot change everything that Google adds to the browser engine.

Stop using Brave Browser

Seriously.

The Spacebar

FallsMom 🌻Sep 15, 2023

@WPalant Looking to learn, what browser engine does Firefox use, if not Google?

Farooq Karimi Zadeh Sep 15, 2023

I think #Firefox is not healthy either anymore. I think I read about it moderating bookmarks or something. Either way, if you use a liberated and community based fork like #Chromium or #LibreWolf you are fine. I am using the latter on desktop and #einkbro on my tablet(I have got an #Epaper tablet).

Wladimir Palant Sep 15, 2023

@farooqkz Yes, Firefox is struggling and has been for a while. As such, they’ve been trying out desperate ideas, such as those paid bookmarks people were upset about a bunch of years ago. And Safari has never been a great browser in my book.

But that’s beyond the point. You won’t have good options as long as Google is dominating the entire ecosystem.

You also seem to have some misconceptions about Chromium. Chromium isn’t a fork, there is no real community around it, this project is run by Google and Google employees. It is open source in the same sense as Android is open source – you can look at the source code, but Google calls the shots.

Slavery is violence Sep 15, 2023

@WPalant and the Tor browser.

Wladimir Palant Sep 15, 2023

@Prainbow Tor Browser is using the same browser engine as Firefox, so I’m not mentioning it separately.

My Actual Brain Sep 15, 2023

@WPalant This is a great write up. I'll switch my wife over to Firefox and help her sign back into everything.

i've put it off for too long.

Demian Sep 15, 2023

@WPalant Is this not specific to Chrome, and not necessarily to any Chromium derivatives? I get wanting more competition, but it seems very non-trivial to build a browser. Leveraging Chromium enables some enhancements while getting benefit of fairly robust and performant engine. Perhaps this still reinforces a kind of monopolization.
Seems like other companies could build derivatives based on FF. Or are there issues with that?

Wladimir Palant Sep 17, 2023

@dgodon There are very few differences between Chrome and Chromium, and browsers wanting to do things differently have to maintain their changes of the Chromium codebase. With the browser being very complex and new releases coming out every six weeks, this is far from trivial – putting a limit on how much Chromium forks can deviate from the original.

In principle, forking Firefox is also possible. This is rarely done however. I think that in the past this was due to worse documentation and higher code complexity (a tribute to its age). I think that things improved considerably by now, so I don’t know how Firefox compares to Chromium today.