Mastodawn

Bread and Circuses

I like this quote:

“The problem is that electric cars are popular with politicians precisely because they provide an excuse to avoid doing harder things, like rebuilding our cities, or changing the habits of lifetimes. Persuading people to switch from their old gasoline car to a shiny Tesla is much easier than persuading them that they can live without a car. Hence governments are pushing electric cars, often with incentives that make no sense.” - Daniel Knowles, author of Carmageddon

Matija May 3, 2023

@breadandcircuses
Living without a car though... If I can get by with public transport for most needs, sure. But in Toronto where I live, this is a pipe dream. I know, public transport is on that list too, but it takes time. In the meantime, I think that electric cars do help. Do you disagree?

Pusher Of Pixels (old account)Jul 8, 2023

@moormaan @breadandcircuses

They help a little when looked at in macro. They are 2-3x as efficient as gas cars - which is saying you can run 2-3x faster than a turtle; a low bar.

Mass transit is far more efficient energy wise.

But like you, where I live mass transit is a bad joke. Suburbs just aren't laid out that way. So the cost of doing the really good option is astronomical. And that's cheap compared to the political cost here in the US.

So it's definitely what the OP says, an excuse for not doing the harder things. It probably buys us some time; but not a lot.

One area EVs can actually be very useful is in grid resilience. Using the car batteries during super hot summers to provide some of the power load. Again though, here in the US, getting people to contribute tot he common good is denounced as socialism, communism and marxism...all at the same time ;-)

@moormaan @breadandcircuses
By progressively managing our transport consumption downwards, we are currently at about 3000 miles pa. That works out to about 700kg CO2 in the 14yo Toyota Yaris we already have.

A new electric car is going to produce CO2 equivalent to *well over a decade* of further use of our current car before it rolls off the forecourt.

Buying an electric car for us would be saying "I am not prepared to strive towards not owning a car, even over that timescale".

@moormaan @breadandcircuses Sure, the balance will be a bit different for many people with worse vehicles and higher consumption at the moment, but...

Scale that up to the society level.

Imagine what could be done in terms of infrastructure and service provision to reduce car dependency in the time it took to wear out the vehicles which already exist.

What a lack of ambition and commitment we have as a society in saying we need mass electric car ownership.

@dash @moormaan @breadandcircuses While you keep your Yaris for 10 more years you would be financing FF industry for 10 more years. How do you think they would use that money?

Electric cars are a tactical solution in a strategical aim of reducing FF industy's power so we could one day (hopefully soon enough) attack it head on and kill it.

Electric bikes are excellent but they don't support that goal.

@lotneuv @moormaan @breadandcircuses

The extent to which one "finances the FF industry" is equivalent to the amount of energy you use.

To cause an electric car to be made is to put a decade's worth of financing in their hands right now, then continue paying in use. While simultaneously perpetuating the motor industry.

We need to end the FF industry *and* massively diminish the motor industry this decade.

@lotneuv @moormaan @breadandcircuses Another thought for you...

Imagine the damage it would do to the FF industry if everyone who owns both a car and a house took the £20k+ or equivalent finance payments to switch their current car for an electric one, and instead spent it on measures to reduce the energy use of their home.

@dash @moormaan @breadandcircuses That depends on the house probably. I'm sure there are plenty of calculations available to see what us the most effective way to reduce FF use (not necesserily energy use) with 20k£.

Long ago my parents' house was warmed with ~1200 litres of some oil derivative. They also drove 40k kilometers a year consuming ~4000 litres of gasoline. If EVs had existed then their (direct) footprint would have decreased 77% with an EV.

@dash @moormaan @breadandcircuses

"""The extent to which one "finances the FF industry" is equivalent to the amount of energy you use."""

This is incorrect. Fossil fuels are energy stores. Burning them is just one way of creating energy.

There are many ways to produce energy. If I buy and consume electricity produced with wind power FF industry will get nothing. Not a cent.

And why should electric motor industry be downsized? FF engines ofc need to go but why electric too?

@lotneuv @moormaan @breadandcircuses Could you explain "electric bikes don't support that goal"?

@dash @moormaan @breadandcircuses In most cases electric bikes don't get bought to replace ICE cars. They *do* replace trips done with ICE cars (a plus side) and thus decrease FF consumption but they are at most an annoyance to FF industry.

Mostly electric bikes replace regular bikes and public transportation trips (a minus side). Thus net effect is unclear.

I'd like to be proven wrong on this however.

hgeorge Jul 8, 2023

@breadandcircuses @moormaan @dash an American buying a 30k (pipe dream) new EV is going to have an incentive to want to keep using a personal vehicle and supporting policies that favor their 30k financial choice over any improvements on public transportation, pedestrian, and bike infrastructure for a long time

Edelruth, PBS Passport Holder Jul 8, 2023

@hgeorge @breadandcircuses @moormaan @dash

Indeed. And guess which industry is absolutely required for the production of the raw materials essential to the creation and maintenance of the roads th ou se EVs run on.

Has anyone looked at what an optimized bike road surface would need for raw materials? Can they be green? They do not have to have any petrochemical material, surely?

hgeorge Jul 8, 2023

@Edelruth @breadandcircuses @moormaan @dash im pretty sure road bicycling led the way in paving roads prior to the car obsession, in a fun turn: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Roads_Movement

Good Roads Movement - Wikipedia

Daigoro Toyama

Jul 10, 2023

@dash @moormaan @breadandcircuses One misconception that many people may have is that as soon as one replaces a gasoline-powered car with an EV, they begin contributing to less CO2 emission. AFAIK, that's simply not the case. You'd have to drive an EV for something like 100,000 km, even if the battery doesn't need replacing by then.

Rasmus Kaj 🎼🦀Jul 15, 2023

@moormaan @breadandcircuses
Living without a car in a big city is not a problem. Living without a car in a big city where every decision for the last 75 year has been optimized for car use can be hard, but the only way to solve that is gradual.

Some people must show that it is possible to get by without a car, then improved bike infrastructure and public transportation can make it easier and more people can go without a car in an good feedback loop.

Magnus Ahltorp Jul 15, 2023

@moormaan In most cities, public transportation is slow because of the cars that block the streets and roads.

@moormaan @breadandcircuses

MarkG Sep 13, 2023

I live in Toronto without a car. Bicycle and public transit works quite well for getting around.

Ehproque has moved Sep 14, 2023

@moormaan @breadandcircuses but that's the point… it needs to be made possible, and this is a lot harder than convincing you change the kind of car you buy

Stefan Urbat Jul 8, 2023

@breadandcircuses that's exactly the issue... #climatecrisis

MikeF Jul 8, 2023

@breadandcircuses
And then again, those politicians shill for the auto industry, tire industry, asphalt industry and, most of all, fossil fuel industry, and their profits. I'm sure you're aware of the sordid history of how those conglomerates bought up and tore down flourishing mass public transportation systems, with the connivance of the respective politicians.

@breadandcircuses 100% this.

thegardendude 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🇵🇸Jul 8, 2023

Peter Brown Jul 8, 2023

@breadandcircuses it’s not entirely untrue, but it’s also an area where the biggest drop in carbon emissions can be almost instantaneous.

@breadandcircuses Problem is, a lot of cities are not friendly for walking everywhere or even biking everywhere. The nearest city to me, Richmond, VA, scrapped its bike share program a while ago even though it was popular. Richmond does have a network of busses but the routes are largely contained to the city limits. I agree we need to shift away from cars generally but we have a ways to go before that can happen on a large scale. In the meantime, EVs still are taking a chunk out of emissions

Jamie Mason Jul 8, 2023

You can't live without a car in this modern world. It's just realistically not feasible.

The other part is right on. The last thing in the world our government wants to do is put money back into the people that they are supposed to govern.

Jamie

joel b Jul 8, 2023

@jamieannmason @breadandcircuses I have made it work by living in a city with functional transit, being young and healthy enough to walk all day if I need to, and having no children or pets.

I still have motorcycles that I ride a couple times a month.

@skotchygut @breadandcircuses

Jamie Mason Jul 8, 2023

I think that's a solid answer, and thank you for sharing. I live in the country! So public transportation and convenience are really not options. It's 20 minutes to town for me, so I need a car.

Don't even give me started on internet access..🤬😅

Jamie

joel b Jul 8, 2023

@jamieannmason @breadandcircuses it’s absolutely a privilege of mine to be able to live like this. If any other those things were to change I would not be able to keep it up.

RickJ Jul 9, 2023

@jamieannmason @breadandcircuses Sorry to disagree, but one can at least live without *owning* a car (I'm 44 and never had one), as long as one lives in a region with a good public transport (in my case currently Berlin). I'm usually walking shorter distances and from the money I save by not having a car, it's easy to pay a taxi or something if I need one.

Magnus Ahltorp Jul 15, 2023

@jamieannmason I live without a car, in this modern world. It totally depends on where you live and if that place is correctly designed. Exceptions might be extremely sparsely populated areas, but most people don’t live there, since they are extremely sparsely populated. Sprawling one-family-house suburbs don’t count as extremely sparsely populated, they count as incorrectly designed. But there are parts of the world where one-family-house suburbs have excellent public transportation.

slideman Jul 8, 2023

@breadandcircuses
Only so many people can afford, or are prepared to buy, the shiny new Tesla. But *they are the people that politicians like talking to*.

“changing the habits of lifetimes”

It is remarkable how few lifetimes that really is… my grandfather was born into the world that predated the ascendancy of cars. But in just a generation or two we completely built and rebuilt our communities around cars.

The good news in this is that if we did in just a generation or two, we can undo it in a generation if we really put our minds to it.

interglossa Jul 9, 2023

@breadandcircuses E.F. Schumacher, "Small is Beautiful"

Runoratsu Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses Even persuading them they can live w/o a car is not the solution—*providing an actually working alternative* is. And not just in the cities, but EVERYWHERE, and covering ALL usecases for a car.

That means frequent, cheap or free, comfortable and not overcrowded local and long distance public transportation, including services to handle larger amounts of luggage, transportation services for goods where needed, etc.

It’s a HUGE undertaking.

Runoratsu Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses Not that I think this isn’t worth it—quite the opposite. But currently, we’re always putting the cart before the horse. We’re asking ppl to get rid of their cars *w/o* providing a good alternative. And wondering why there’s a lot of pushback & resistance.

Ppl wouldn’t spend 1 year’s income or more on a car, plus running costs, if it didn’t *significantly* improve their lives. If you want them to change that, you’ll have to provide an alternative ALREADY.

Runoratsu Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses And not just any alternative like “I don’t care, I made it work for me, you can make it work for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”, but one that they’ll WANT to use.
Make it cheaper than their car. More comfortable. Less of a hassle. Then ppl will come. Just like ppl will take a plane for longer journeys they could do by car as well—the plane makes the journey less of a hassle so people choose it voluntarily.
We must make public transport just as attractive—for all journeys.

Lady Lus, Inflate-a-Bou Jul 11, 2023

@Runoratsu THIS. My 18 minute commute becomes over 2h by transit. 4h/day both ways. Seeing friends & relatives on the other side of the city is >3h each way by transit, and I'm limited to what I can reasonably carry in two hands.

Grocery situation gets a bit dicey as well, unless I become dependent on a delivery service where I pay added costs and lose the ability to browse the store myself. And healthcare becomes even harder to access when it's a multi-hour round trip on an unfamiliar route, while unwell.

Every plan I've heard for eliminating cars from the low/medium-density places like mine where millions live and work is... either some kind of unproven technical wizardry, or phenomenally expensive and will require many years to implement.

Getting people into more efficient vehicles is something that can be done *now*, while figuring out how to retrofit light rail into a city with no existing system or rights-of-way and steering future construction towards higher development.

Runoratsu Jul 11, 2023

@lusrangifer it kinda works in urban areas in Europe. When I was living in Munich for uni, I didn‘t have a car, but busses and subway trains were so frequent and a lot of big shops so close by it was manageable. For some bigger errands we still needed to borrow a car (or someone with a car) from time to time, but not too often. Nowadays, in the countryside however? No chance! No trains, infrequent busses, and almost everything’s 10+ km away, so taking a bike is often no real option.

Petrichor ᚄᚔᚅᚐᚁᚆᚃᚒᚔᚂ Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses Also, they don't know about they tyre pollution https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/09/tire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/ #carbrain

Why tires — not tailpipes — are spewing more pollution from your cars

Planning a summer road trip? What to know about two major sources of pollution coming from your car: tires and brakes.

The Washington Post

Kenneth John Bardsley Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses
The means may well be justified by the ends. At least it is a fairly big step in the right direction, whatever the motivation. It will lead to more such steps. All welcome. Not to be seen in isolation of course.

RobCornelius Jul 10, 2023

Its capitalism demanding we spend more money on things we don't really need to burn the planet to the ground

@robcornelius @breadandcircuses

Jasmine Jul 10, 2023

Yep.

William Conner Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses A number of people where I live have chosen a Tesla or other EV. Full-scale EV adoption would be great when there is adequate infrastructure, support for moving goods, etc. Today, at least here, that does not exist so the city is extending a turn lane instead. 😉

Chuck Darwin Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses
https://press.coop/@newrepublic/110689567509845306

The New Republic :press: (@[email protected])

Mass transit is essential to reaching America’s climate goals—but moving away from gas-powered cars risks depriving it of crucial funding, @emmafmerchant writes. https://trib.al/EaW8phL #press

press.coop

Ged Maheux Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses @digichelle i’m going to go ahead and say it… I cannot live where I am in the country without a car. I simply cannot. It’s either own a car or take a taxi everywhere. I choose the former in EV form. it’s naïve to think people can live without this form of transportation in their lives

Digichelle Jul 10, 2023

@gedeonm Personally, I don’t blame you! And I don’t blame anyone else faced with the same dilemma. Living in Los Angeles, I face it myself.

The issue is a structural one. We’re forced to make these decisions because really, they’ve been made for us by the powers that be. And as far as I can tell, the quote in the original toot is aimed at them, not us individuals simply trying to do the best we can.

To sum it up: an EV is the best option given the problematic, car-centric status quo.

Cian O'Connor Sep 15, 2023

@gedeonm @breadandcircuses @digichelle

I mean you're going to have to live without them, because you're not going to be able to afford cars (or taxis for that matter).

People act as if the resources exist for us to continue living this way - but the reality is that they don't. Though we may destroy what remains of the planet before we discover that fact.

Daniel Jul 10, 2023

@breadandcircuses @isotopp if at least electrification would move ahead - because here in Germany, politicians and industry are still loudly riding the hydrogen hype train. Reason: we don’t have to change anything whatsoever right now, because H2 is going to save us all, and it’s right around the corner… any year now… just a bit longer… you’ll see…!

Wolfgang Feist Jul 10, 2023

Solche Probleme!

Die Verbrennung von Kohlenstoff muss reduziert werden, und zwar dalli-dalli.

Versuch mal, den MIV in DE ernsthaft zu reduzieren. Aha?!? Wo haste denn die blaue Nase her.

CO2 Diesel-Auto: 130g/km
CO2 E-Traktion (ehrlich gerechnet): unter 60g/km heute, unter 30 in rund 8 Jahren.

Das ist durchaus nicht unbedeutend; und es steht dem Stadtumbau keinesfalls im Weg. Hört auf, Lösungsbestandteile gegeneinander auszuspielen. Es braucht beides.

Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC Jul 11, 2023

@breadandcircuses 30 years ago, my family and classmates all thought I was crazy for not taking any driving lessons. When they tried to convince me, I just replied, "Automobilism is a dead end for civilisation."
Here I am at 48, I have never owned or driven a car, I still haven't even got a license. I have a few friends with cars who can help me if I absolutely need a car for some reason. I own several bicycles though.

athinkinganarchist Jul 11, 2023

@[email protected]@[email protected]

this is based as fuck

SusanHR Jul 11, 2023

@breadandcircuses I agree but the entirety of western North America was settled after the advent of cars and has few walkable living places and little public transportation. In NYC a car is unnecessary. But on Vancouver Island it is essential.

We have to get around between now and when we build 15 minute neighbourhoods, tram and train lines, and develop public transportation.

Magnus Ahltorp Jul 15, 2023

@SusanHR In large parts of North America, there were walkable cities with public transportation, it’s just that the infrastructure was torn down. It was a choice. Now there is time for another choice.

SusanHR Jul 27, 2023

@ahltorp Eastern North America is still like that i.e. New York City, Montreal. But Edmonton was not like that since it was a town. The western parts of North America were sparsely settled when the car was invented. The city sprawl comes from that. Out not up. Of course it can be changed. But it is a problem that European and older cities do not have.

If you refuse to recognize the problem you cannot find solutions.

Magnus Ahltorp Jul 27, 2023

@SusanHR Los Angeles had 100000 inhabitants at 1900. San Francisco had about 300000. Seattle had 80000. That is not small. Large scale roads were not built until after WWII. The landscape was purposefully changed to subsidize the car. Those subsidies are extremely expensive, both in terms of money and in terms of community.

Boomer Jul 11, 2023

@breadandcircuses thank you for stating what too few care to acknowledge. And the welfare to the car companies pushing billions upon billions from bottom up.

chris Jul 11, 2023

@breadandcircuses
So true. For me, a blind person, this is a human rights issue as well
as a climate issue. Yes, electric vehicles are awesome. I love riding
in them. When I take Lyft and the driver has an electric, I nerd
out and ask them a bunch of semi-technical questions.
It's very superior to internal combustion.
But it would be so much better to live in a world built for people,
not for cars. A world where I didn't feel like I was literally taking
my life into my hands every time I walked down a busy street.

Here in the US, we have this mindset that every problem can be solved
by consumption. Just buy some shit and the world will be better.
We saw it after September 11, when Bush got on TV and told people to
go shopping. Detroit, orSilicon Valley, or whoever -- has a solution
for whatever your problem is, and all you have to do is buy it.

By the same token, the opposite -- and to some, equally alluring -- trap is a sort of hair-shirt
anti-materialism / anti-consumption that says individuals can change
the world through enough self-flagellation. That's another post entirely,
though.

My point is these are collective problems and we have to solve them
collectively.

Lord H Jul 11, 2023

@chris @breadandcircuses Much the same here in UK. Blind (like my daughter) and other disabilities are marginalised because there is no profit to be made. Stay safe Chris.

Atomic Fox Jul 11, 2023