I am deeply disappointed by this news. As much as I'm sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause, the use of cluster bombs (that kill civilians for years after they are dropped) is by definition a war crime.
Ukraine shouldn't be using them, and the US shouldn't be providing them.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/russia-ukraine-cluster-bombs-biden-human-rights-watch
@jmb why do you presume ukraine would use those munitions against civilians? do you have reports (NOT #russian propaganda) of ukraine using ANY munitions against civilians?
if you deny ukrainians enough humanism to use cluster munitions in self-defense and only against military targets, — how come you don't deny them use of any weapons at all in self-defense? there's really no boundary.
I do not believe Ukraine would intentionally target civilian populations... but cluster bombs (by their nature) are not precision weapons.
@[email protected] so?
it basically boils down to more ukrainian civilians killed at night in their homes, at restaurants, on streats because they didn't have time to get to shelters, — because «cluster munitions are not precision weapons». you're ok with the first, because the second is messy and «not right»?
man, i hope you never have to defend your motherland and learn every day of new deaths.
Do you understand the concept of war crimes?
As a participant, no.
As an attorney who defends US servicemembers in courts-martial and who has heard many, many war stories, yes. It is from this context, that I believe the laws of war are non-negotiable.
FYI, the US has failed the test many, many times. Even in what is arguably our most just of wars (WW2), we still crossed the line when we firebombed German cities with burning jellied gasoline and when we dropped the atom bombs on Japan.
1. I don't know you, so please don't call me "brah."
2. Please reread my posts. Did I call any grunts "war criminals"? Nope. I don't judge them. But, I DO judge the political leaders and generals who give them immoral orders.
@jmb
All Russia has to do is go home and leave Ukraine alone, and no cluster weapons will be used there, ever.
They've been free to do this at any time. Instead, they continue their invasion of a sovereign nation, leaving a bloody trail of atrocities and war crimes.
I won't pass judgment on Ukraine for fighting back against the invaders by means possible. I'd only change this opinion if they were using them against civilians on Russian soil.
Russia has committed many, many #WarCrimes thus far. I have and will continue to condemn them for this.
But the war crimes of the aggressor do not justify war crimes by the defenders. This is a basic principle of international law. #ClusterBombs kill for years to come, and often end up killing non-combatants.
For further discussion of this, I would suggest looking at: https://www.icrc.org/en/document/what-are-jus-ad-bellum-and-jus-bello-0
No, it is not. I have spoken out against the Russian invasion from the beginning and will continue to do so.
But yesterday I was posting specifically about the US's role in shipping cluster weapons to Ukraine because I live in the US. My tax dollars are being used for this, so I have an obligation to speak out. --- I obviously do not pay taxes to Russia.
@jmb
While I do share your concern, one also need to consider:
1. Don't judge the Ukrainians without having 'walked a mile in their shoes.'
2. Formally and technically, they have not signed the conventions that forbid them to use these weapons.
3. They are not likely to use it on civilians, but on invading soldiers in limited areas that can be cleared afterwards.
Its more problematic with invading Russians randomly using illegal weapons they are legally bound not to use, against civilians.
Re 1 - Good point. My judgment is primarily aimed at the US. I don't vote or pay taxes in Ukraine. I do in the US, and hence have a moral obligation to speak out about it.
Re 2. Another good point.
Re 3. I agree that Ukraine is unlikely to use these weapons on civilian populations. --- Where I disagree is about what happens after the war. If past history repeats itself (from other wars), these weapons will be exploding for years after they were dropped. This is the big issue.
@jmb
Re 3, look at pictures from Ukraine. Large areas are totally covered with small craters. That is also where you will find the unexploded bombs, statistically speaking.
If they know which areas they shoot cluster bombs at, they know where to clean up afterwards.
The big picture is that nobody knows where all the conventional, unexploded Russian bombs are. Bombs aimed at civilians.
In Europe, we still find unexploded, unstable bombs from WWII on a weekly basis, if not more frequently.
I understand. You believe that war crimes are ok if the other side does it first.
Sorry, but I don't agree.
@jmb No, you understand NOTHING. Your insincere "care" & attempts to trigger the opponent only to cover up the clear support for the russian terrorists committing #warcrimes are SO easy to see.
Advocating for the invaders to continue their genocidal efforts while the ONLY option you leave for #Ukrainians is to lose their lives with no chance to protect themselves - sorry, Mr Lawyer, this is not something we can agree on.
@ThisThornyRose @jmb exactly. This is another facet of generic boilerplate pacifism which does not want to get its hands dirtied with details.
a) cluster munitions have always been used on the frontline by UA in various forms.
b) Russians have used clusters on civilians, since the beginning, there is NO proof UA ever did,
c) conflict areas are littered by such a density of mines which makes the addition of UXO from cluster irrelevant.
Attached: 2 images In the end, all the discussion about US providing cluster munitions to #Ukraine is pretty pointless. UAF has always had and used cluster munitions, derived from USSR times. So discussion whether to supply it is likely just a manipulative attempt to avoid further inconvenience to russian AF https://mil.in.ua/uk/articles/kasetni-boyeprypasy-vijny-v-ukrayini/
@jmb @ThisThornyRose That is totally fine, because these weapons are deadly and can inflict harm to civilians after the fight is over.
However, I doubt a moral high ground will win a war for survival against invaders that use nearly every possible war crime against an innocent population, that just want a better place to live in, than mimicking their former oppressors.
In this case, it is understandably their choice to make.
(edit: oppressors, not (gun) suppressors... agh)
@stadsplanering ...(continuing)
This is why all the whining about "Ukraine shouldn't take/use the #cluster munitions" sounds so fake & insincere.
#Ukraine has NO other choice at this point 😔
The territory is already heavily mined & dangerous for EVERYONE (thank you for that, ruzzia 😡). Civilians from the area were either deported to ruZZia, killed by ruZZia or evacuated to the safer part of Ukraine.
Those who care about the civilians so much should call for #Russia to withdraw & end the #war
@ThisThornyRose @jmb It's possible to "both sides" from both sides.
Chamberlain would be proud.
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