Mastodawn

Ravi Vyas Apr 22, 2023

“[sideloading] would allow customers to download apps without needing to use the App Store, which would mean developers wouldn't need to pay Apple's 15 to 30 percent fees.” https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/17/app-sideloading-support-coming-ios-17/

Not a chance. Apple will just use another method to collect their "commission”: https://developer.apple.com/support/storekit-external-entitlement/

Remember: Tim Cook views our customers as THEIR customers, our sales as THEIR sales, and the 30% as what they rightfully deserve for gracing us with a platform that we provide no other value to.

iOS 17 to Support App Sideloading to Comply With European Regulations

Apple in iOS 17 will for the first time allow iPhone users to download apps hosted outside of its official App Store, according to Bloomberg's...

MacRumors

Marco Arment Apr 17, 2023

Soon, at WWDC, lots of great people in developer relations and engineering will tell us how important developers are to Apple. And I believe them! They've shown in many ways over the years that they truly appreciate us and the value we bring to the platforms.

But they're not the ones making IAP policy.

Tim Cook shows us, over and over again, exactly what he thinks of us, and exactly how he thinks the value flows between Apple and developers.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Cabinet 20 🌱

@marcoarment I can’t help but feel if Apple had lowered their cut to 10% or something similar early on and said “this is for you, because we appreciate you”, so much hassle for them could have been removed. Greed is what it is though.

Ian Williamson Apr 17, 2023

@cabinet20 @marcoarment Could it though? I mean it’s essentially 15% now, and even at 10% would there really be no more complaints? I doubt Epic would have accepted that.

Cabinet 20 🌱

@tuckerjj @marcoarment People would definitely still complain but dropping their cut by 67% may have stopped the governments getting involved. Honestly, it might not though. Certainly it would have limited their bad press from developers though.

Thom Bullock Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment Gruber’s WWDC interview 2 years ago was informative I think, when Joz asked essentially “why would we go to all the trouble of this conference if we didnt care deeply about developers?” - they compartmentalize the tech side vs the business side in a way which makes no sense from the outside, but seems to help them sleep better internally.

Throw Away Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment I mean, the number's _gotta_ be something non-zero, though, right? Definitely for Apple's App Store. Maybe for alternate app stores it makes sense to make it closer to zero, but then maybe it would make sense to still make it be _something_ - they have to review the Alternate App Store “App” still? Or maybe it would make sense to take their 27% of the _profit_ from the alternate app store (not the gross)? I really don't know.

Nevin Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment Your “Apple doesn’t get it” rant is early this year. Curious how this view is tamed after WWDC. Not devalidating, just noting a yearly pattern.

Aaron Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment I think everyone forgets what a revelation the App Store was for developers. Pre-iPhone, mobile app stores used to take a 70-80% cut and you reached a tiny audience.

As a mobile developer from those days, I’ve probably got more sympathy for Apple’s position than I should! 15 years a long time.

FreediverX Apr 17, 2023

@AaronTunney @marcoarment
But that argument cuts both ways. Apple would have a fraction of their current success and profitability were it not for third party developers.

Apple’s rhetoric and revenue cut do not align with their respective contribution to the platform’s success, especially when you consider what a terrible job they do at curating the app store.

Sean Apr 17, 2023

@AaronTunney i remember when software was sold in boxes in physical stores. There were charges even then to sell the software on behalf of the developer.

Brian Apr 18, 2023

@AaronTunney @marcoarment what store were you selling on? This is not even close to accurate. There was a smaller but very focused audience, trialware didn’t take 10+ years to be allowed, and the cut was about the same or less depending on your deal…

Aaron Apr 18, 2023

@birdsoft @marcoarment This is my experience of selling Symbian apps on Handago.

Brian Apr 18, 2023

@AaronTunney @marcoarment ahhh, fair enough. I still don’t remember it being that high, but I believe for Symbian carriers may have also been involved and it was generally just a pain market that was avoided. Palm and Windows Mobile were much friendlier, Handango paid for us to have conferences(not the other way around), and it was generally living proof that sideloading isn’t some killer thing….

Ceolaf Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment you are SO-OOOOO close to talking about the value of labor unions.

Almost none of you are individually as important to Apple as Apple is to each of you.

You want to be viewed as a collective, but you are not. You are a bunch of individuals.

If you want Apple to recognize some collective power or importance, do the work to make Apple do so. Otherwise, you remain a rather unimportant individual.

Markmaster Apr 18, 2023

@marcoarment I don’t understand. This is sarcasm an Apple don’t live the developer? I am just not a developer.

Ali Apr 18, 2023

@marcoarment I inherently disagree with this. The App Store has provided many of us a platform to expose our hard work, make a profit, and reach communities we otherwise might not have. I have never felt that the percentage Apple takes makes me feel undervalued, at all.

Greg Marra Apr 29, 2023

@marcoarment love that last line

Melvin Gundlach Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment I just want to use my own apps that I built myself on my phone without having to redeploy those every week, but that seems too big of an ask 😕

Ren Apr 17, 2023

@melgu @marcoarment Yes, this. It’s so frustrating when I go to use my app and it is gone. Redeploying it too early doesn’t help, at least not always. Grumble.

Jon Henshaw Apr 17, 2023

“Sideloading voids warranty and cancels AppleCare. Click Agree to proceed with enabling sideloading.”

…is how I imagine this going

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@jon @marcoarment That would be invalid in most countries, I believe.

Fabio Romeo Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment not only that, it's a fee for a supposed value of support and protection that they can't even manage to do right, if at all.

DGP May 10, 2023

@fabioromeu what was that, I couldn’t focus on your post, too busy working a second job to finance the calculator app that costs $79.99 a week after free trial 🫠

Manton Reece Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment I agree with you on the way Tim Cook sees this, but I also think once sideloading is possible, Apple will start to lose control. And that's how it should be. Are they going to sue small developers to access our bank accounts? Ridiculous.

Elliot Shank Apr 17, 2023

@manton "Ridiculous"? Why?

You think a little uproar from some developers would dissuade them? I think not.

Non-developers will think that that is fine.

Manton Reece Apr 17, 2023

@clonezone It's just wrong for Apple to claim a portion of my revenue that they had no hand in. I agree non-developers will not be very concerned about this.

Elliot Shank Apr 17, 2023

@manton What you consider to be wrong and what Apple considers to be wrong are two different things. Apple feels justified and all the stuff that has happened so far in Asia and Europe shows that they will get away with requiring reporting of all outside-of-store revenue and paying ~27% of gross.

Manton Reece Apr 17, 2023

@clonezone I don’t think they are going to get away with it long-term. Might take years to sort out, though. And yes, me and Apple disagree. 🙂

Elliot Shank Apr 17, 2023

@manton Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism. Yes, they're going to be forced to allow out-of-store sales. I don't see anything forcing them to reduce their share of revenue.

Josh Rivers Apr 18, 2023

@manton @marcoarment I can still easily drop $5-10k/yr on Microsoft development tools. $99/year with an unlimited free tier at developer.apple.com isn’t guaranteed to exist. Apple doesn’t need to sue you, they can just inform you of the new pricing. Good luck running code without a code signer and linker.

Manton Reece Apr 18, 2023

@joshrivers @marcoarment Charging for dev tools is different than dipping into my business revenue. If Apple wants to charge $5k for Xcode, they can feel free. I would probably pay it. But they are not entitled to a cut of my subscriptions (to be clear I don't use IAP).

Josh Rivers Apr 18, 2023

@manton @marcoarment I don’t think they are entitled either, but SalesForce sells products that cost 3% of gross customer sales. I think Apple needs to cut a new deal with their ecosystem, but alternative app stores won’t magically make that happen. There are still so many ways they can extract whatever price they consider fair unless they get regulated like a utility and have prices set by government. Which our government seems unlikely to do.

Gene Thomas Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment
Sideloading will create an entirely new level of support issues. Unsuspecting older users will have apps installed, often by their children and grandchildren. There will also be issues with ads claiming better experience if one replaces one app with another—“just click here” (looking at you google.)

When there are issues the users will descend upon the carrier stores which will in turn pass them off to Apple Stores, also unable to help them.

DGP May 10, 2023

@RedStateExile with respect, this isn’t what happens on the Mac, and it’s not even what happens on Android, where sideloading is easy but locked behind a simple switch. Sideloading does not mean no sandboxing. Sideloaded apps don’t suddenly have root and take over your phone. They’re apps.

If old people come in with 24 fake apps sideloaded by Junior, Apple will… help then delete them and show them the “allow apps to be downloaded from scary third parties” switch and admonish them to keep it turned off.

Gene Thomas May 15, 2023

@dgp We are not talking about the Mac, which by the way has more security problems than iOS due installs outside the App Store.

(I thought I had posted this “back when”)

DGP May 16, 2023

@RedStateExile again, security problems on iOS hinge entirely on sandboxing, not on Apple gatekeeping apps with anticompetitive rules and a 30% revshare. The two don’t have to be bundled. Apple just pretends they’re related to imply that the App Store protects you when it most definitely doesn’t, for instance, it openly embraces scam apps with absurdly high subscription fees as well as the #1 seller, casino games for children.

Gene Thomas May 16, 2023

@dgp I was _only_ talking about the impact it will have on the supper side.

Gene Thomas May 16, 2023

https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/05/16/apple-blocked-over-2-billion-in-fraudulent-transactions-17-million-bogus-apps-in-2022?utm_medium=rss

Apple blocked over $2 billion in fraudulent transactions & 1.7 million bogus apps in 2022

Apple has successfully prevented over $2 billion of potentially fraudulent transactions within the App Store while intensifying efforts to reject suspicious apps.

AppleInsider

DGP May 17, 2023

@RedStateExile ok. If you believe that what they’re actually blocking is the major threat I guess you’re satisfied with that. The way I see it, most of the fraud going on is going on right in the open, because it’s technically ok under apple’s terms, due to the fact they make so many billions of dollars off of it.

But go ahead and enjoy Apple’s perfect benevolent, definitely-not-anticompetitive rule if that’s what you think it is. I’ll stop engaging in this thread.

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment probably, if history is any indication. Unless they are forced to - or believe there is no way they will escape being forced to in the extremely near future.

IMO it should be illegal to run an App Store like Apple’s (yes, also for game consoles). There should always be the option of going outside the “official system”. It’s MY phone.
If the App Store’s control is critical to the security or integrity of the system, then it should be illegal to charge for it.

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@marcoarment I’ll be clear, it should not be legal for them to claim an ongoing revenue-dependant fee for access to their platform - unless the developer chose to use their full service system.

The iPhone model is immoral. Calling it a console (as @gruber has done for example) just makes it clear, that game consoles are similarly problematic - although the signicance to the wider economy and culture the smartphone has, makes the comparison a little ludicrous.

Kraig Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment @gruber
Of course you all want the policies changed. From where you sit that would have a number of objectively positive outcomes (money, cust relationship, approvals, etc).

I just want the app store to be filled with GOOD apps, not garbage. I genuinely don't know what policy is most likely to generate the best customer outcome.

Is that sideloading? I don't know, maybe? But I do know that lots of unscrupulous devs will do sneaky shit, even if the good ones don’t…

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@kraigschmidt @marcoarment @gruber for my part, I’m just a consumer. I just want it to be clear, that Apple doesn’t own the phone once they sell it to me.

Kraig Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment @gruber
That is a very reasonable point of view, but what does that really mean at the end of the day?

With respect to software, and licensing etc, I feel like the horse has already left the barn? It started with consoles, but that model exists in a number of places, I think?

And honestly, I'm not convinced that Apple shouldn't take *more* control and take the app store ‘up-market’.

Because while good stuff *is* present, it is statistically overwhelmed by the dreck…

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@kraigschmidt @marcoarment @gruber By allowing side-loading they’d be completely free to do so. They could make the App Store the premium experience they pretend it is today.

They never would of course, because their bread is buttered by semi-scammy games selling in-app purchases to kids and bored people.

Kraig Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment @gruber
I get what you mean by sideloading allowing them to make the App Store… more exclosuive. I would love it if ever did that!

But my impression is that's not how they think about sideloading, like, at all. Its easy to say its because of scammy subs, but that's too easy also.

I think there is a genuine belief that (whatever the faults of the current App Store) a freely open system (aka sideloading) like with PCs would be way way worse for MOST customers?

Kraig Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment @gruber
Now, most people having this convo are NOT regular customers. Just by being on Masto, we are NOT regular customers.

And yes, that sentiment, however much good faith in which it may be held, is muddied by the corrupting revenue stream of scammy shit.

But all (or at least, more than one) of these things can be true at the same time…

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@kraigschmidt @marcoarment @gruber fair enough, I might be slightly irregular, but I’m not a developer was my point.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment Unless I’m greatly mistaken, Apple doesn’t charge for security and integrity (how much does AirBnB contributes to the store?)

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment they charge for access to revenue via their system. And they hinder most businesses to make their own decisions about how to distribute apps and charge money. One of their arguments for this restriction is “safety”.
If they thought Airbnb, Amazon and others would stay on the platform, they’d be charging them too.
The margins of selling physical goods make the commission impossible, which I guess Apple knows.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment This is one way to see it, another way is to see this as a commission of doing business IN the device. This pays for the “service” enjoyed by every developer.
I can’t wait for side-loading to happen with its scams & others surprises. Normal users have everything to loose. It’s gonna be a lot of fun.

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment those quotes around service make it seem like it might not be worth 30%. If people assume the risk of installing something, then it is indeed a little more risky. Something Apple should try to alleviate like they do on the Mac.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment Do you buy everything direct? 30% is a bargain.

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment For Software - yes, if I have the opportunity I do. That has typically been a possibility since the 90’s with a lot of software.
If 30% were a bargain, you’d see developers jumping for joy at the opportunity. But sadly for them - they would like a little of the profit for themselves too. Fair enough I’d say.
The 30% (I know it’s 15% in a lot of cases) is essentially a payment and hosting fee, and it’s a little high.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment And 40% (without sales tax) for Air Jordan? (that Nike doesn’t discount if you buy direct!)

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment physical goods are not comparable. Find another hill to die on.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment you are right: you never find exactly what you need, the sales person is grumpy and the service after the sale is inexistant (But in some store which are the exception.) Direct hasn’t made price go down…

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment You are free to find those Air Jordans on sale in another store though. So competition among retailers certainly has made the price go down.

myrmidon Apr 17, 2023

@agentjacob @marcoarment Not really, small volumes, raffles, second market sky high 😵‍💫

Jacob Andersen Apr 17, 2023

@myrmidon @marcoarment Funny, seems all those things have very little to do with software sales. It’s almost as if the comparison to something that is limited by physical production is a little disingenuous.