Mastodawn

JS Apr 22, 2023

The Russians think they just have to kill enough Ukrainians, win the war, and then their trading relations will get back to normal.
Today, my generation has a very positive view of Germans, but I remember growing up in the 1980's in Denmark, where some of my dad's business relations still would not do deals with anyone from Germany.
That was forty years after World War II and Hitler's occupation of Denmark.
Forty years — this is the kind of anger the Russians have drawn upon themselves.
#ukraine

Tobias Merkendorf Mar 13, 2023

@randahl well. And that's Denmark. The place where the Nazis behaved "best".

In Poland e.g the view on Germany might still be a bit different for some.

Aho Mar 13, 2023

@t_mkdf @randahl just look at the Finns, they still don't trust #Russia and it's no more than 30419 days ago that the aggressor crossed the border and then they repeated it just 574 days later.

But they didn't trust the Russians back in the 1930's either, they knew who was living on the other side of the border.

Andiias Mar 13, 2023

@randahl Can confirm, however, it doesn't really seem to have dented overall German economic performance at the time. It was mostly an emotionally driven individual stance, not official policy. A good illustration would have been the Dutch where the governments were pro-German, but the young generation was overwhelmingly and passionately anti their German peers. One key difference to Russia: Germany was firmly embedded in Western European institutions.

eyrea 🇨🇦May 16, 2023

@andiias @randahl Exactly. Germany didn't spend 40 years behind a self-imposed iron curtain prior to WWII.

Rachel Greenham Mar 13, 2023

@randahl similarly: growing up in the 80s in England, my uncle had a German girlfriend. His mother (my grandmother, devout Irish catholic - later proved cool about me being trans btw) wouldn't talk to her. Because of what the Germans did to the Jews in the war.

No, it wasn't fair on the girlfriend (born post-war); but that's exactly the point you're making I think. The reaction to an evil done by a country *lingers*.

Arne Mar 13, 2023

@randahl Well, I guess you can make it 70+ years.
I grew up on the other side of the border. When I studied in Denmark in the 90s the reservations regarding Germans were still quite alive in some people - even in young ones.
Even in the 2010s, I experienced Danes making derogative remarks about German project partners - blissfully unaware that I could understand them.

Randahl Fink Mar 13, 2023

@feinschmeckergarten I feel sorry you had to experience that. However, I did see a poll from 2015 which showed how the negative views of Germans where held by just 3 percent of Danes, so fortunately it is not common anymore.

Also, Danes joke a lot, and I would not be surprised if Danes would joke about Germans without it being representative of a deep felt hatred towards Germans — just like you can sometimes hear Danes joke about the French, the British, the Swedes and so on.

Arne Mar 13, 2023

@randahl I did survive - all the Danish jokes. 🙂 However, my experiences have realigned my previously more positive attitude towards Denmark (having family ties and ancestry).

Anyway, the 3% prove your point, that it takes decades to overcome the intense hatred, suffering and loss experienced in a war.

militant_dilettante Mar 13, 2023

@randahl now, if I ever meet my favourite Russian-language fantasy writer (co-authors from Kharkiv under the name of Henry Lion Oldie), I don't know how to look them in the eyes.

woollypigs Mar 13, 2023

@randahl yup, in the mid 80s my nanny married a German and it took a fair time for her folks to get their heads around that. But as soon as a grandchild arrived, that issue disappeared :)

Peter Garwood www.bbbrclub.org Mar 13, 2023

@randahl Absolutely true. I saw many Dutch businessmen refuse to deal with German businesses and deal elsewhere.

Rene Lloyd Mar 13, 2023

@randahl so they can only trade with China, India, Middle East, Africa and S. America ?

FirefighterGeek

@randahl I grew up with a Jewish background here in the U.S. I have a parent who wouldn't own a German car or by Bayer aspirin.

My first business trip to Germany had me quite nervous.

I've since grown to enjoy being there and respect the many German friends I have, but your point about the lasting stigma remains valid.

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Mar 13, 2023

@FirefighterGeek @randahl yes, Germany had the mother of all humble pies to eat after two world wars. They are very keen on not repeating any of that.

M_C_B52 Mar 13, 2023

@randahl I had a work colleague who would not buy a Japanese car in the late 1980’s, because he said “I remember Pearl Harbor.”

Arena Cops 🇺🇦✌Mar 13, 2023

@randahl Russians won't win the war, Putin will keep on being an aggressive threat & Ukrainians are never ever going to forget, what Russians have done to them for no sane reason.
That's what even Russian military veterans thought, before mob boss Putin started his mafiotic war of aggression against Ukraine.

#StandWithUkraine #StandWithHumanity #PutinTribunal #WarOfAggression #WarCrimes #CrimesAgainstHumanity #CrimesAgainstPeace

Ariaflame Mar 21, 2023

@ArenaCops @randahl As Beau of the 5th column notes, Putin hasn't even got to the hard part yet. They don't have nearly the manpower to occupy Ukraine.

Brian Gerfort🇺🇦

@randahl @donmelton I can safely say that I’ll never again, for the rest of my life, do business with Russia again. I’ll never buy products from there, or sell to them. Full stop. And I probably have 40 years left in me.

@randahl Yes, everybody that thinks such deep traumas heal so fast has obviously never been to Spain. Greece. Portugal. Poland. France. The Netherlands.

@randahl Or Russia.

newsorpigal Mar 13, 2023

The same applies to Americans. What kind of reputaon do you think America has after decades of mass murders and wars in the Middle East?

Agora Mar 13, 2023

@randahl I still don’t trust Germans, and I was born in the 80s thousands of miles away!! On another continent.
I will NEVER forgive the Russians for what they have done.

Randahl Fink Mar 13, 2023

@Agora I have visited quite many European countries, and based on many experiences the Germans are among the people I trust the most. The Swedes are a close second.

Agora Mar 13, 2023

@randahl Good for you. I read Hannah Arendt’s book on Eichmann when I was in high school. I have never been able to shake how they all followed orders to snitch on their neighbours and friends. I have tried to shake if off, but, I haven’t succeeded.

Randahl Fink Mar 14, 2023

@Agora name me a country where the population cannot be mislead by a demagogue.

Agora Mar 14, 2023

@randahl like I said, I cannot shake the chill I have felt about the Germans since high school. That’s just the way it is.
Am going to bed.

Agora Mar 13, 2023

@randahl we must never forget what the Russians have done to Ukraine!! I have already decided that I will never forgive them.

It's Just Jenn 🏳️‍⚧️Mar 13, 2023

@randahl I won't have a positive view of Russia until they kill their mobster leader and create a new government.

pandion Mar 13, 2023

@randahl I went to a Passover seder in the '90s in California where I thought two men were going to legit brawl over whether any Jew could conscionably buy any German product ever again.

Seppo Enarvi Mar 13, 2023

Imagine how many generations it will take before Ukrainians will do business with Russians again.

Pieter Kuiper 🌍🇳🇱Mar 13, 2023

@randahl
The German language has not recovered its position as a language of science and culture. And even after Brexit, European politicians often talk English together.

The same thing is happening to Russian culture now. Not even works by Russian composers are getting performed much now.

Bajker🇨🇿Mar 15, 2023

@randahl ...at least

poumarat francois Mar 17, 2023

@randahl ton père était à n en pas douter une belle personne mais ta vision est fort simpliste il me semble😉
deja à qui profite le non respect des accords de Minsk signé après la 'révolution ' menée par une jolie blonde avec des nattes 😊
Envolée vite fait bien fait avec quelques millions la belle...
Reveil dude

Army Girl Mar 21, 2023

@randahl oh yeah.

⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe Mar 21, 2023

@randahl Don't the Russians themselves have, as part of their national identity, strong feelings about WW2 even to this day?

Tim Richards Mar 21, 2023

@randahl @dgar and much deserved too.

DamnKimberlee Mar 22, 2023

@randahl I agree. We’ve been told by the media we can’t blame all Russian’s--I say we blame the Russians, the Republicans and anyone who supports Putin’s crimes against humanity! We’re not angry enough!!

Frank Westphal Fella Mar 25, 2023

I will not respect russia for the rest of my life. All of us alive now, will have to die before russia can even think about getting another chance.They're a liability to planet Earth.

Σειληνός (Seilēnós)Apr 10, 2023

@randahl Probably much longer than 40 years. Ukraine still has survivors of Stalin's Holodomor genocide walking around, and most Ukrainians have neither forgiven nor forgotten it. This latest in a long line of Russian atrocities only adds fuel to their rage. I'm not a Ukrainian, but I have a Ukrainian great-grandfather and a Polish great-grandmother. #SlavaUkraini

https://www.dw.com/en/holodomor-survivor-i-want-to-witness-this-victory/a-63933604

Holodomor survivor: 'I want to witness this victory'

Liubov Yarosh survived Soviet dispossession, the Holodomor famine and World War II. At 102, she is living through war once again, supporting Ukrainian troops in their fight against Russia's war of aggression.

Deutsche Welle

Mirko Schenk Apr 11, 2023

@randahl Well, trade and society are different.
While Germans weren't accepted by many people after WW2, there was the "Wirtschaftswunder" thanks to exports. And it seems to me like profits became more important than morals since then.
The world also still trades with Saudi Arabia, China, Qatar, and many other countries with bad regimes and reactionist societies. Even Russia still sells huge amounts of gas and uranium to European countries.

Rai Aren 🖖✨📚🇺🇦Apr 18, 2023

@randahl 💯 💯 💯
This evil #RussianAggression has already done a generation or more of damage to themselves.
🇺🇦#UkraineWillWin 🇺🇦
#SlavaUkraïni
#StandUpForUkraine
#ArmUkraineNow
🛑#russianinvasionofukraine
🆘 #StopRussianAggression 🆘

old_tootbrute Apr 21, 2023

@randahl my grandpa lived in Greece during WW2. he never told me many stories but i know he never had a good opinion of Germans for the rest of his life. this has set back public opinion of Russia for decades.

m0xEE Apr 21, 2023

@randahl Actually, it's what most sane Russians fear — that it would go back to normal as soon as they strike up some new "peace plan". I was expecting at least what we have now sanction-wise well in 2015, so this state would crash and burn with no economy to wage any international offensives, but no — European leaders were so full of shit that it went back to business as usual in just a couple of years 😩

m0xEE Apr 21, 2023

@randahl Everyone knows what's happening now in Ukraine, but was what happened earlier not enough? Was shooting down civilian plane not enough? Was what was happening in Syria not enough? And there was an attempted Kazakhstan incursion just a month before the Ukraine invasion started, no one seems to even remember that now. But no, everyone was happy with cheap gas.
Mind you, I'm not trying to blame others, we as Russian civil society have failed at preventing what is…

m0xEE Apr 21, 2023

@randahl happening now and have completely lost control over state, we have tried but it was hardly enough. Still I underestimated how corrupt European politicians are. Even now as the bombs are falling, Macron is talking about how the US are preventing him from carrying out "independent" European policy and how he, together with China, is going to work forward "peace talks". What is he talking about? Looks like he's still ready to give up Ukraine to return to business as usual🤨

The Evil Microwizard Apr 22, 2023

@randahl My father, who was involved in WW2 fighting in the Philippines, absolutely banned any technology of Japanese origin in our household for nearly 50 years after the war's end. We suffered through a lot of low quality stereo equipment and automobiles.

JGW Apr 22, 2023

@randahl
Throw in Russia kidnapping children and murdering families for the hell of it, and it wouldn't surprise me if it takes more than a hundred years for people to look at Russia with any kind of acceptance...

Tim Richards Apr 22, 2023

@randahl So true. No intention of visiting Russia while the current regime remains in place.

Juju&Baba&Yoyo🌈May 7, 2023

@randahl
Will be interesting to see if toxic capitalism will damper a lingering response by the "west"

Samuel Thompson May 16, 2023

@randahl similarly, I knew a few British service men who has served in the Far East who would not consider buying a Japanese TV or car for all their days

Nazani Jun 30, 2023

@randahl My parents' war yrs were spent in CA. Privy to more 1st hand info about Japanese atrocities. They Never forgave.