Mastodawn

CelloMom On Cars

The main reason the hydrogen hype is in overdrive: Big Oil n Gas wants to make money converting fossil gas into hydrogen.

"Before looking at why legacy #automotive companies, resource tycoons and the politicians that represent them, have been such huge advocates for hydrogen-powered vehicles, it’s important to firstly outline why #hydrogen cars are so fundamentally flawed and will never come close to competing with #battery electric vehicles."

#EV #EnergyTransition
https://thedriven.io/2023/02/10/the-madness-of-big-autos-push-for-hydrogen-powered-cars/

The madness of Big Auto's push for hydrogen-powered cars

The battle between hydrogen and electric vehicles has been more about preserving entrenched energy monopolies and less about science. The war is now over but some continue to push the hydrogen pipe dream.

The Driven

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

There is a place for #hydrogen. But blindly applying it everywhere turns it into a solution looking for a problem.

"According to the Renewable Energy Institute (REI), a Japanese environmental think tank, this push to use hydrogen in every conceivable energy sector is actually doing more harm than good. "

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a42665011/japan-hydrogen-energy-failure/

Japan Tried to Build a Hydrogen Society. It Backfired Spectacularly.

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Popular Mechanics

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

Everybody knows - I hope everybody knows - that fully two thirds of the energy you pour into the gasoline / diesel tank of your ICE car gets lost as heat. It's like buying three pounds of vegetables and immediately throwing out two before you start to cook with the remaining pound.

Turns, out, #hydrogen cars have the same inefficiency: 34% - 37%.

Battery e-cars have a 87% efficiency. The same solar field can power nearly three times more EVs than hydrogen cars.

https://thedriven.io/2023/02/10/the-madness-of-big-autos-push-for-hydrogen-powered-cars/

The madness of Big Auto's push for hydrogen-powered cars

The battle between hydrogen and electric vehicles has been more about preserving entrenched energy monopolies and less about science. The war is now over but some continue to push the hydrogen pipe dream.

The Driven

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

And then there's the refueling.

I had hydrogen in my lab: in a little tube charged to "only" 300 psi. The safety officer was all over me (okay, all over my safety procedure).

And society is going to trust me, a mom, usually sleep deprived, distracted by gazillion little things, to refuel a hydrogen car myself without supervision? Welp.

And those hoses and fittings will never leak, right?
Double welp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9xVNI6WE5E&t=42s

How do you fill up a hydrogen car? - DrivingElectric

YouTube

CelloMom On Cars Jul 19, 2023

"A two-year-old project to run 51 #hydrogen #buses in the French city of #Montpellier and its environs has been cancelled for being too #expensive after elected officials realised that #electric buses would be six times cheaper to run.

It is much more efficient and cheaper to pump the #renewable electricity directly into a vehicle #battery."

#EV
https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/french-city-drops-order-for-51-hydrogen-buses-after-realising-electric-ones-six-times-cheaper-to-run/2-1-1143717

French city drops order for 51 hydrogen buses after realising electric ones six times cheaper to run

The $33m green H2 project, launched in Montpellier in 2019 in conjunction with EDF, had already been awarded regional, national and EU funding

rechargenews.com

CelloMom On Cars Jul 20, 2023

It was always the #FossilFuel industry pushing for hydrogen even in places where it makes no sense. Now #DeSmog has the receipts.

"An intensive two-year #lobbying effort by a key #gas boiler industry organisation has been critical of #HeatPumps, and promoted #hydrogen for #HomeHeating to government and opposition parties, despite strong evidence of its unsuitability."

#UK #FossilGas
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/20/gas-boiler-lobby-uk-heat-pump-plans-leak

Gas boiler lobby trying to delay UK’s heat pump plans, leak shows

Trade association, which promotes hydrogen for home heating, called for clean heat market mechanism to be pushed back to 2026

The Guardian

CelloMom On Cars Jul 21, 2023

"With targets now set for the phase-out of #gas boilers in countries across #Europe, in recent years, gas companies in the #UK and the #EU have lobbied hard for #hydrogen over #HeatPumps – the model which offers the least disruption to their business model."

#HydrogenHype
https://www.desmog.com/2023/07/20/revealed-media-blitz-against-heat-pumps-funded-by-gas-lobby-group/

Revealed: Media Blitz Against Heat Pumps Funded by Gas Lobby Group

An energy trade association that represents and promotes gas boilers and manufacturers is behind a barrage of negative press attacking heat pumps, DeSmog has learned. Over the past two years, the Energy and Utilities Association (EUA) has paid a public affairs firm to generate hundreds of articles and interviews to lobby the UK government on […]

DeSmog

CelloMom On Cars May 20, 2024

How the #hydrogen hype fizzled out

"A seductive hydrogen narrative has been replaced with one in which the fuel’s complexities and limitations are more apparent. But even its much reduced role could still prove challenging to deliver."

https://www.ft.com/content/14a60649-172a-45c1-99a9-039f481430e7

– Despite all the subsidies, the production is way less than needed for the 2030 goal;
– It's expensive, $200 /MWh
– Other tech has developed faster, e.g. batteries

Lex in depth: how the hydrogen hype fizzled out

Once viewed as a superfuel that could decarbonise large chunks of the economy, the likely uses are shrinking dramatically

CelloMom On Cars Aug 13, 2024

"#Hydrogen’s potential as a carbon-free fuel has provoked no end of excitement. From the deserts of Australia and Namibia to the wind-blasted straits of Patagonia, companies and governments worldwide plan to build almost 1,600 plants to make it.

There’s only one problem: The vast majority of those projects don’t have a single customer stepping up to buy the fuel."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-12/why-almost-nobody-is-buying-hydrogen-dashing-green-power-hopes

Why Almost Nobody Is Buying Hydrogen, Dashing Green Power Hopes

The vast majority of projects don’t have a single customer stepping up to buy the fuel.

Bloomberg

CelloMom On Cars Aug 15, 2024

Liebreich's #hydrogen "ladder" is a broad overview of where it makes sense to use hydrogen, and where it doesn't.

The fossil fuel lobby is hyping up hydrogen for all these uses, and have convinced some politicians that home heating should also happen with hydrogen, which is bullshit: heat pumps are much more efficient, cheaper, and safer.

Why do they do this? Because most hydrogen is made from fracked methane right now.

Gurre Vildskägg Aug 15, 2024

@CelloMomOnCars
And because it removes focus and funding from electrification that is a mature tech that "just" needs political backing to be rolled out.

Electric double tracked, grade separated, trans(sub)continental freight corridors. Real in India. This is what US railroads ought to be doing, not doing ment-to-fail hydrogen experiments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmNbqGp6KXU

WORLD FIRST ELECTRIC DOUBLE STACK CONTAINER TRAIN (INAUGURAL TRAIN RUN)WDFC

YouTube

CelloMom On Cars Aug 15, 2024

Agree: a lot of money is going into hydrogen subsidies that could be used for building the real climate savers. Hydrogen and "carbon capture and storage" are both championed by the fossil fuel industry, which really should make people think.

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz May 20, 2024

@CelloMomOnCars Hydrogen is good for metallurgy and chemistry, nothin else.

Mackaj Jul 20, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars

Whatever way you cut it, home heating with #hydrogen is less efficient & more expensive than alternatives such as heat pumps, district heating and solar thermal.

Additionally it would cause problems for an already leaky UK national gas network where existing natural gas valves are unsuitable requiring replacements that have yet to be designed. The same is true for the pumping stations as the existing natural gas compressors won't work with hydrogen. It's not a straight swap.

CelloMom On Cars Jul 20, 2023

Absolutely.
Hydrogen is highly reactive and causes corrosion and cracking.
"Hydrogen embrittlement" is a thing. (A scary thing, if you ask me, in the context of consumer use).

And yes, the UK infrastructure for anything that flows is distinctly underwhelming.

nyzn Jul 20, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars Although I usually find myself defending hydrogen, I think your comments and the article you have linked are reasonable. I think it's important to continue developing green hydrogen, and especially hydrogen storage and transport, because it seems like the best solution for heavy industry and heavy/long haul transport. But pushing it now as competition for batteries for cars (and smaller things) seems silly.

nyzn Jul 20, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars It is possible that as hydrogen tech and infrastructure develops, for the purpose of the heavy stuff, that there will come a time that the availability of that tech and infrastructure makes it competitive for cars. But that seems like an open question that will take care of itself when/if that time comes.

nyzn Jul 20, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars And finally, 100% agree with you about the motives of the existing fossil fuel corps to try to preserve centralised control and leverage their fossil fuel infrastructure and stretch out the value of their fossil fuel investments. But I think there's a lot of unhelpful absolutist and misleading anti-hydrogen lobbying from the EV side too.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars This isn't the 1980s. Modern equipment won't even engage unless the connector is secured latched on. It is no more dangerous than refueling gasoline. This has been done thousands (millions?) of times now, and AFAIK no one has died as a result.

Martin Vermeer FCD Feb 12, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars Yep, the moment you burn stuff, you're losing... although those fuel cells aren't too good either at 60% efficiency.

Joe Mansfield Feb 12, 2023

@martinvermeer @CelloMomOnCars
And for the foreseeable future the H2 you are burning ( or fuel-celling) has taken between 11 and 13kg of CO2 emissions to produce.

So the full system efficiency of hydrogen at the moment makes it one of the worst possible fuels around.

Future engineering developments and delivery of genuine green ( renewable generated) H2 will help but it has a loooong way to go before it can compete with battery electric in terms of full system energy efficiency.

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

@helvick @martinvermeer

Yes, and meanwhile we need all the clean energy we can generate to run our heat pumps, our cooking stoves, our battery electric cars. The speed of the energy transition is important too.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @helvick @martinvermeer And there is no possibility of that happening without energy storage. And energy storage at the scale needed is impossible unless #hydrogen is used. Which means that hydrogen is fundamental to green energy.

In reality, anti-hydrogen people are at best clueless, at worse actively against progress.

CelloMom On Cars Feb 13, 2023

So, @helvick @martinvermeer

You do realise that this @Hypx is paid to hype hydrogen, right?

It's now resorting to the equivalent of advertising toothpaste by saying: " You stupid a**hole, don't you SEE that my toothpaste is the best?"

Martin Vermeer FCD Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @helvick @Hypx Looks like it. Blocked.

Martin Vermeer FCD Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @helvick @[email protected] BTW if only you knew what some folks are willing to do for free... nuke bros anyone?

He has one valid point: using hydrogen storage to manage renewable intermittency. But in any realistic scenario, this is a small part of the total generation budget, and so cost and low thermodynamic efficiency are no deal breakers.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @helvick @martinvermeer When lacking any coherent arguments, immediately resort to ad hominem.

In reality, this is the true face of #EV fanaticism. Trolls that exist to sell cars with no actual concerns for the environment.

Joe Mansfield Feb 13, 2023

@Hypx @CelloMomOnCars @martinvermeer Dude! You literally jumped into the conversation saying ‘anti-hydrogen people are at best clueless’ as your _opening_ contribution. Look in a mirror.

And this is the second time you’ve done it here. Blocked, definitely a troll.

Mackaj Jul 20, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @helvick @martinvermeer

Hypx is a shill for the fossil fuel industry. He wants #hydrogen used across the board, today, and dangles the carrot that green hydrogen will magically become available everywhere in whatever quantities needed at ultra low prices. Disagree with and highlight the flaws in his unicorn arguments and you'll just get a mouthful of abuse. I've also blocked him.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@helvick @martinvermeer @CelloMomOnCars For the foreseeable future, EVs are unsustainable and enormously environmentally destructive. Nor is the grid zero emissions either.

This is a common double standard: #hydrogen cannot be accepted because it is not yet green. But dirty electricity and batteries are fully acceptable for now. This is the delusion that #EV companies want you to believe.

⚙️ Roy Phillips Feb 12, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars also, if the hydrogen combustion uses air, there’s going to be a ton of nasty NOx coming out the tailpipe, too

@CelloMomOnCars battery power is just as inefficient. It's just that the wasted power is lost at the electrical generator, not in the car itself

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

True IF the power comes from a thermal plant, so coal or fossil gas.

For a PV powered e-car, it's a different story.

@CelloMomOnCars solar power is at best about 40% efficient. Of course what is being wasted is just sunlight, which we have a virtually inexhaustible supply of.

However, the manufacturing process is still terrible. There's no environmentally friendly car.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @tobyink But you basically can't have PV or wind powered EVs because they are highly variable power sources. And no, the example of a person letting a car constantly being connected so that the variable energy source can slowly charge a car is not a scalable solution. Meanwhile, #hydrogen can be stored, and hydrogen cars can refuel when they need to at a convenient time.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars If you believe that graph, I have a bridge to sell to you. Imagine someone claiming a combustion engine is close to a fuel cell on efficiency. That person is either profoundly ignorant or is outright lyig.

ex or current IDF unwelcome Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars And I believe that you produce as much water as the fuel you burn. A wartime experiment was to condense a lifeboat's exhaust but the contaminants were too many

Russell 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇺🇦🍉Feb 16, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars But EVs are only useful when their entire energy source is from renewables. Their efficiency is also inflated. The real figure is closer to 75% on the ground due to rolling resistance of the tyres and gearing.

GATEKEEPER May 31, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars
If manufactures weren't so obsessed with SPEED in EVs the motors can deliver more mileage. 1000 horsepower is obscene. Most gas cars in the size range are 175 to 225 HP.

CelloMom On Cars May 31, 2023

If manufacturers weren't so obsessed with PROFIT the world would be a better place.

Lithium could be spread over a lot more EVs.
Walkers and bikers wouldn't be bullied - and killed - by SUVs.
We would all get fewer speeding tickets.

A long time ago I figured out - for fun - how much #horsepower you need for a medium-sized car to cruise the nation's highways.
Spoiler: 76 HP.

http://www.cellomomcars.com/2011/11/how-much-horsepower-do-you-need.html

How much horsepower do you <em>need</em>?

One very important item in the "Performance Specification" page of any car is the power of the engine. CelloMom explores what exactly you ...

GATEKEEPER May 31, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars
The government should lower all speeds on interstates by 10MPH and install photo ticketing for offenders . A luxury tax on Gas cars and Trucks over $50,000 of 10%. IMO

CelloMom On Cars May 31, 2023

The US government lowered the highway speed limit to 55 MPH in the 1980s, to save gas - but many places have gone to 65 mph after that.

The Netherlands has camera ticketing on highways - people drive 100 kph exactly. Also their various taxes on an Audi Q5 amount to about $20,000. Yeah. They didn't ban them. But there are very few of them on Dutch roads.
These things are very hard to get in the US because of #CarBrain. It takes culture change.

GATEKEEPER May 31, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars
I can't believe they haven't lowered the speeds .Most interstates in Va, WV and PA are 70, people do 80 and cops don't mind. I got hit by a camera in Pa. doing 11 mph over the limit. They sent me the picture and said nothing is required at this time..
Luxury taxes will make some reconsider the purchase.

CelloMom On Cars May 31, 2023

Lowering the speed limit - or even imposing one - is a hot button issue in Germany right now. Amazing what #CarBrain can do to otherwise very rational people. I mean, they're trying to lessen reliance on Russian - or any - oil, right.

In the US, speed cameras run into people crying foul of privacy rights and jurisdictions making mint out of unsuspecting - and innocent! - drivers. Innocent, I tell you. </sarc>

David Hembrow May 31, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars That seems quite generous.
We haven't had a car for some years now but when I first met my wife she owned one with a 41 HP engine. We lived in the UK and it took us around much of the country, including hilly areas, without any problems caused by lack of power. Acceleration was fairly gradual but it was definitely capable of exceeding the 70 mph speed limit (though not uphill).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro
@GatekeepKen

Austin Metro - Wikipedia

GATEKEEPER May 31, 2023

@hembrow @CelloMomOnCars
That's what we need now

CelloMom On Cars May 31, 2023

The 76HP is for a "medium" (for the US) car like a Toyota Camry to go up a 6% grade at 65mph.

More than 150 HP is a boys' dream implanted by the car industry.

Your story reminds me, my husband has stories of his grandfather taking his car (ancient in the 1970s) up the hill at Newton Poppleford (near Sidmouth) and rather literally going backward as he shifted gears -- I'm sure that car had less than 41HP!

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars Except people who say that are blinding trying to push li-ion batteries into everything. It is a much bigger disaster and has already overstretched its limits. See giant #EV SUV and pickup trucks for what I mean.

In reality, this needs to stop and be reversed. More #hydrogen investment is needed. We are far away from "doing more harm than good."

BudgetDuurzaam Feb 12, 2023

“Comparing a hydrogen fuel-cell car with an EV, we can see what Griffith is talking about. Not only does the hydrogen car need electric motors and a battery like an electric vehicle, it also needs hydrogen tanks to store the hydrogen and the fuel-cell to convert the hydrogen into electricity. Comparing the two car designs we can see the hydrogen-powered car is far more complicated.”

Better compare any car with a bicycle… #stopDrivingCars #stopMetAutorijden

CelloMom On Cars Feb 12, 2023

@budgetduurzaam

Precisely!
The car lobby is much stronger than the bicycle manufacturing lobby and has pushed talk of bikes and public transit out of the way.

But we know:
E-bike is better than e-bus
E-bus is better than e-car
E-car is better than ICE car

Hydrogen car? at the bottom of this hierarchy (look for "H2FC car", hydrogen fuel cell).

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars @budgetduurzaam This is more #EV propaganda. They are trying to sell you a car. They are frauds or scam artists.

BudgetDuurzaam Feb 13, 2023

@Hypx @CelloMomOnCars I agree. I travel myself al over 50 years electric, without battery and hydrogen, just by electric wired train and muscle powered bicycle. Traveling by mid-speed train costs less than 10Wh/km per person. Compared by e-car thats 5 to 20 times less energy use per kilometer per person. We’d better make our busses and lorry’s wired.

Darnell Clayton

@CelloMomOnCars Yeah, hydrogen cars were way over hyped.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars This is EV propaganda. Pure bullshit. A fuel cell car is literally a type of #EV. People who spread this garbage are liars, scam artists or Luddites. They are basically try to sell you a particular type of car and nothing else. They are not environmentalists.

CelloMom On Cars Feb 13, 2023

Hehehe I was wondering when you would show up:
Why? Not working on weekends? Tsk tsk.

Hypx Feb 13, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars You're pathetic troll.

Remnants Feb 17, 2023

@CelloMomOnCars The focus needs to be on making green hydrogen more competitively versus fossil hydrogen. Fuel cells can wait, what we really need are electrolyzers. Oh and fuel cell vehicles are currently just a tiny fraction of all hydrogen consumed. There is a big enough market for hydrogen without fuel cells is what I'm saying.

CelloMom On Cars Feb 17, 2023

Yes!, the over-eagerness to apply the hydrogen solution to any problem speaks of the greed for lock-in of the tech (and the market).

Fossil hydrogen needs to be called out and pushed out, the quicker the better. That's just more lock-in.

CelloMom On Cars Mar 2, 2023

The #HydrogenHype has really taken hold in Europe:
""We need all colours of #hydrogen," the minister said, referring to debate in Brussels about the environmental credentials of hydrogen produced from #nuclear energy."

Germany's finance minister Christian Lindner is of the free-market oriented FDP.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-needs-use-all-energy-options-available-finmin-2023-03-01/

Germany needs to use all energy options available - FinMin

Germany needs to use all energy options available to bring down high prices and protect certain sectors of the economy, Finance Minister Christian Lindner said on Wednesday.

Reuters

CelloMom On Cars Mar 2, 2023

The one hyped by the #FossiFuel industry:

"#BlueHydrogen: Almost universally, steam #methane reforming linked to carbon capture and storage. Despite significant hyperventilation and hand waving, to date not so much as one single molecule of blue hydrogen has ever been created."

They hype it, they can't hack it, they end up selling you their dirty #hydrogen: "grey" from fossil gas, or worse, "brown", from #coal. Without mitigation.

https://timinclimate.medium.com/to-all-the-colours-of-hydrogen-ive-loved-before-9caca572cc00

To all the colours of hydrogen I’ve loved before - Tim Baxter - Medium

One of my more perverse hobbies is to collect “colours” of hydrogen. Molecular hydrogen (i.e H₂) is naturally a colourless gas, but energy nerds have developed an imperfect shorthand system to refer…

Medium