Gustav H Meyer

the sad reality of open source software development

In short: folks love the amazing decentralised encrypted comms utopia of Matrix. But organisations also love that they can use it without having to pay anyone to develop or maintain it. This is completely unsustainable, and Element is now literally unable to fund the entirety of the Matrix Foundation on behalf of everyone else - and has had to lay off some of the folks working on the core team as a result.

https://matrix.org/blog/2022/12/25/the-matrix-holiday-update-2022

The Matrix Holiday Update 2022 | Matrix.org

Matrix.org
Dec 25, 2022 at 6:50pmWeb
Show threadrknallDec 25, 2022
@inetpro core developer of another big os software here. That only is just half the sad part. Most management is under the impression, that software development does not cost anything, more so for OSS software. But they are willing to pay thousands for 3rd-party software "because that is supported"
Show threadGraham Sutherland / PolynomialDec 27, 2022
@rknall @inetpro I've been considering this problem for quite some time (particularly from the angle of being super ADHD, which makes me terrible at answering tickets) and I still don't have a good answer. The only vaguely workable solution I've come up with is mandating support contracts for commercial usage and requiring some kind of account validation against the running instance to keep the majority of businesses honest, but that's still pretty high friction.
Show threadGraham Sutherland / PolynomialDec 27, 2022
@rknall @inetpro (this would only be workable for software platforms where you can somehow verify that the support user/org matches instance, of course - no good for something like a library or CLI tool)
Show threadFink Dec 27, 2022
@inetpro @rknall oh yes. And it also does not really matter how shitty the paid support ends up 🙄
Show threadElias ProbstDec 25, 2022

@inetpro just learned, how horribly underfunded #Matrix is.
Although it's not much, I chipped in at least a small monthly donation I can afford on #LiberaPay, where the current total monthly amount is shockingly low.

If you can, please help this important project of the #Fediverse!

https://liberapay.com/matrixdotorg/

#OpenSource #Sustainability #Matrix #Donations #Finances #Support

matrixdotorg's profile - Liberapay

Matrix.org is an open source project building an open network for secure, decentralized communication.

Liberapay
Show threadTioDec 25, 2022
@eliasp @inetpro They also get a lot more from Patreon www.patreon.com/matrixdotorg and grants matrix.org/faq/#how-is-matrixo… but of course such a big project should be properly supported. I'd say governments should help fund these sort of projects and use these.
Matrix.org | Creating the future of open comms! | Patreon

Become a patron of Matrix.org today: Get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.

Patreon
Show threadElias ProbstDec 25, 2022
@tio @inetpro yes, it really surprised me to see, they're not appropriately government-funded, since at least the German and French governments heavily make use of it.
Show threadTioDec 25, 2022
@eliasp @inetpro Yes this is outrageous.
Show threadworkingseaDec 25, 2022
@tio @eliasp @inetpro It's better to donate on Liberapay than patreon, as Liberapay doesn't take any of the donations to themselves.
Show threadGhosn in the cellarDec 25, 2022
@eliasp @inetpro Well it is a single-company product where specs are decided by mostly people at the same company, and is backed by cryptocurrency venture capitalists (see: bottom of matrix.org homepage), and it is steamrolling the alternatives thanks to the money it can throw around, apparently not for much longer, but so far it has failed to produce a healthy ecosystem
Show threadThe Matrix.org FoundationDec 25, 2022
@Greviculteur @eliasp @inetpro This is bullshit, needless to say. In fact, the problem is that there are too many companies building on top without supporting core devs. Less than half the spec proposals are written by core team members. In terms of “steamrollering other projects” - the enemy here are proprietary comms silos, not us. 😡
Show threadworkingseaDec 25, 2022
@Greviculteur @eliasp @inetpro You're pissed because they accept donations in crypto? How much has you donated to offset the crypto donations?
Show thread𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓽Dec 26, 2022

@Greviculteur

@eliasp @inetpro

Can you name any of the alternatives, that Matrix is steamrolling?

Show threadOle V. S. Mortense 🇩🇰🇪🇺Dec 25, 2022
@eliasp @inetpro wait… but #Matrix were funded & used by the French government, I believe I was told. They might not have been funded as much by the public, but I almost certain I heard on FLOSS weekly ep.688(I believe) that matrix were funded by above.
Show threadNicolas PettiauxDec 26, 2022
@eliasp @inetpro i'll do too
Show threadDrezil Dec 25, 2022
@inetpro that's why I'm always for dual licensing.
you want to use it non-commercially? sure! go ahead!
you want to use it in your company? have you bought a license? 😉
Show threadMark DiazDec 26, 2022
@Drezil @inetpro and so the conundrum: close it off and those larger orgs simply won't use it. Those large orgs using it give credibility to the project. Difficult balance and not an easy solution unfortunately.
Show threadDrezil Dec 26, 2022
@neurosys @inetpro you can always change the license lateron.. or hide critical plugins behind such stuff 🤷‍♀️
Show threadJan PenfratDec 25, 2022

@inetpro "The only viable solution to this is for organisations building on #Matrix to contribute to sharing the costs of maintaining Matrix’s core projects. We made a proposal to address this a few weeks ago, which we’ll iterate on further in the new year to find an approach which both empowers the community and encourages organisations to participate":
https://matrix.org/blog/2022/12/01/funding-matrix-via-the-matrix-org-foundation

#foss #opensource #funding #commons

Funding Matrix via the Matrix.org Foundation | Matrix.org

Matrix.org
Show threadFugue State Machine MotoDec 26, 2022

@inetpro @jeff the sad reality of working on *any* tool that could help enslaved people liberate themselves.

And if you don’t know which enslaved people I’m talking about, you’re likely one of them.

Show threadJustinDec 26, 2022
@inetpro Seems we need to organise a #FundMatrix campaign?
Show threadShivaDec 26, 2022
@inetpro
One of the problems with having a non-copyleft license. Either they use your code and don't give back anything, or they use your code and are obligated to share back changes/pay for a license.
Show threadtoolbear#🪧Dec 26, 2022

@inetpro @davidgerard
*offers a grain of salt*

I wrote Matrix off when I did some digging and it seemed like one or both of the cofounders are Effective Altruists (and so probably Longtermists now).

The connection is tenuous, but EAs are hyper aware of optics and PR. I bring it up occasionally hoping someone with more info will confirm or refute it.

Suss techbro types in my orbit were talking Matrix up, too. I'm just soured overall on it.

Show threadDavid GerardDec 26, 2022
@toolbear the UK side of EA is slightly less insane (but only slightly, here's pages of justification for spending the charity money on a fucking castle). Which ones are you thinking of?
Show threadtoolbear#🪧Dec 26, 2022

@davidgerard
The UK variant. Re-emphasizing that it's circumstantial.

Matthew Hodgson, co-founder, presenting at a DWeb conference in late 2010s where other presenters were in the EA camp. Fund injection by Jaan Tallinn 2021.
TBH even attending Cambridge and being in the same age cohort as Will MacAskill makes me suspicious.

I don't like that the name Matrix was chosen given the obvious "hashtag Red Pill" connotation. They've done nothing to disabuse that AFAIK.

Show threadtoolbear#🪧Dec 26, 2022

@davidgerard
I wouldn't trust a statement of disavowal either since that's a crypto-libertarian / crypto-fash tactic. I see the problem this poses with me making accusations.

I expect exaggerated demonstrations of "I am NOT an effective altruist" from people who can be credibly linked to that movement. And if they don't, that too is a choice.

Obvious refutation: "decentralized web" is going to be a rogue's gallery so *of course* I'll spot these connections.

Show threadDavid GerardDec 26, 2022
@toolbear lol yeah 100% part of it
Show threadKevin McCurleyDec 26, 2022
@inetpro that's an exaggeration. The problem is that you expect to be paid to write it. Open source is thriving.
Show threadMitch Downey Dec 26, 2022

@inetpro suggestion…instead of letting anyone create a Matrix space for free, how about putting up a subscription paywall that can be bypassed if people pursue free hosting?

We have a Matrix hosted space for Podverse, and it just never occurred to me there is a Matrix organization I should pay for this service. If I was prompted to setup a recurring subscription at the time of creating a space, even if optional, I would have at least sent something first.

Show threadSunyshore (ナギサシティ) 🌐🇹🇼🏳️‍⚧️Dec 26, 2022

@inetpro The free rider problem in #economics 😞

I think we need better infrastructure to fund open source projects, like #QuadraticFunding and government incentives or grants

Show threadDanie van der MerweDec 26, 2022

@inetpro very true that especially businesses and governments using open source as part of their operations, should be making financial contributions.

That said even RetroShare is getting EU funding grants towards their open source development efforts. So it may also be a case of tapping into funding made available at EU elevel.

Show threadDavid SterryDec 27, 2022
@danie10 @inetpro Seems like a straightforward use case for a Free Software Use Tax very similar to public parks and and roads. Main thing is to ensure funds only go to solve problems agreed upon by the software's community.
Show threadDanie van der MerweDec 26, 2022
@inetpro I see that @[email protected] are funding a number of Fediverse projects, but as Matrix is not actually part of Fediverse they are not in that list. But maybe they know more about #Matrix funding.
Show threadKevin P. FlemingDec 26, 2022

@inetpro It's unfortunate that the primary Matrix Foundation web page (https://matrix.org/foundation/) doesn't include any information about how to make donations.

Maybe someone from the @matrix team can improve that 🙂

Show threadGareth KitchenDec 26, 2022
I know little of the structure but reading the article it seems that the ‘core’ is far too sprawling and lacks focus. Many millions are being donated into the foundation, as I understand it. Just my take, from the article.
Show threadEdbroDec 26, 2022
@inetpro @cstromblad this is so sad. We se it far to often that organisations just use open source software, without giving back to the community. I just hope that these federated solutions don’t get abandoned like so many softwares before. #FOSS #Funding #matrix
Show threadwebhatDec 26, 2022

@inetpro I've been contacted to upgrade my FOSS plugins for commercial products, when I sent an invoice they were surprised I wouldn't do it for free.

How am I supposed to pay for a commercial license for a product I'm enhancing through FOSS if they don't give me money to pay for the license? That's ignoring any time I'm even spending on the work

Show threadWendy M. GrossmanDec 26, 2022
@inetpro Dlonate to your Mastodon instancde lest this fate be repeated here.
Show threadæva ( 🏳️‍⚧️🏍️ arc )Dec 26, 2022

@inetpro @kendraserra I’m so sorry to hear that — and at its core, this is a symptom of the whole problem with #security in #opensource today.

In short, profit-driven motivation almost always supersedes investment in securing the commons at for-profit corporations.

I’m becoming more and more convinced that the Gov and Civil interest in securing the commons will need to be funded another way…

Show threadsotiryDec 27, 2022
@inetpro "open" does not mean free of costs, there are people working behind. To avoid such a dead-end, there should be some breakdown of cost and income (donations or other) structure from complex orgs like Matrix, so they can quantify everything & prove transparently what it means to keep the development and maintenance ongoing and for all us: 1.License entry minimal amount 2.maintenance (annual) contribution for commercial/non private use 3.development funding for longer-term engagement.
Show threadLudovic DubostDec 27, 2022
@inetpro
Open Protocols and Open Source is a challenge. Lot's of users take it for granted and don't participate to it's funding. However the issue is not wether or not you can fund it, but how much you can fund and how fast it develops. Matrix has funding. Maybe not enough to go as fast as they would like or to manage the expectations of some investors (of element). There are many much smaller OSS projects which work with less money 1/2
Show threadLudovic DubostDec 27, 2022
@inetpro
In any case, there is a reality check that needs to happen from large users, private companies, software companies, administration, that for Open Source end user software to strive and replace large proprietary platforms, they need to chip in and help the projects they rely on. 2/2
Show threadLudovic DubostDec 27, 2022
@inetpro
We at XWiki we run our own projects @XWiki and @cryptpad. We've worked hard to develop them and found ways to fund them, without external investors. In the latest years we've manage to fund CryptPad with EU projects (thanks) but to make it sustainable we do need clients of https://cryptpad.fr or donations https://opencollective.com/cryptpad
CryptPad: end-to-end encrypted collaboration suite

CryptPad: end-to-end encrypted collaboration suite

Show threadAde Malsasa AkbarDec 27, 2022
@inetpro hello @nlnetlabs, I humbly want to ask your opinion about this funding issue concerning Matrix chat.
Show threadNLnet LabsDec 27, 2022

@ademalsasa @inetpro It's hard for us to comment on this specific situation, other than that we love the Matrix and Element software and think they deserve sustainable funding.

We don't know the specifics of Matrix or their funding model. All OSS organisations are different, even in our corner of the world - core-internet infrastructure software - there are huge differences in funding models.

In that sense, there's more than one reality for OSS, there are many.

Show threadNico RikkenDec 28, 2022
@nlnetlabs
@ademalsasa @inetpro An important aspect mentioned by @matrix is that current funding is for feature development and so the main issue is to fund the growing burden of maintenance. As the #Matrix ecosystem matures the funding has to match this transition by shifting from feature development to maintenance.
Show threadNLnet LabsDec 28, 2022
@nicorikken @ademalsasa @inetpro @matrix One thing we’d like to clear up is that NLnet Labs (nlnetlabs.nl) the software development organization is in no way associated with NLnet (nlnet.nl), who fund open source projects.
Show threadAde Malsasa AkbarDec 28, 2022

@nlnetlabs thank you for your opinion and clarification, my friend. Wish the best for Matrix Project and all projects under NLnet.

@nicorikken @inetpro @matrix

Show threadNico RikkenDec 28, 2022
@nlnetlabs
@ademalsasa @inetpro @matrix
I know, but it is a bit confusing on face value. Perhaps NLnet can also stand up a Mastodon account?
Show threadNLnet LabsDec 28, 2022
@nicorikken @ademalsasa @inetpro @matrix That would be cool, but we have no control over that. 😄 There is @NGIZero though.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jan 12, 2023
@inetpro that's why corporations should #PayForOpensource!