Thomas Westgard
Kevin Larsen 📚#success #twittermigration #twitterexodus #Mastodon #inspiration
"Imagine if we measured success by the amount of safety that people felt in our presence."
Thanks to @ILikeBooks the original post is now more friendly to screen-readers. I wasn't able to copy directly, so if there's still problems, it's probably my mistake since I never did screen-readable photos before.
djohngo@kevlarsen I kind of do.
LeaBug@kevlarsen that's how I measure success. I don't know how guys do it.
LakeRNistired@kevlarsen but one should not be responsible for another’s irrational fear.
LinaB@kevlarsen we would be in my dream world
Carol@kevlarsen As a public school teacher, I cannot tell you how much I love this quote.
Linseigh@kevlarsen I love this. On a podcast I was listening to today, someone said successful people use others as merely resources. I prefer your version.
Evan@kevlarsen I need to "yes, but" this...
There are some of us who are feared because of who we are, not what we do.
I want people to *be* safe with me, and I hope they feel safe as well, but if their own assumptions about people like me are in the way of that, I can't do much about it.
Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis@evantesseract @kevlarsen Hear, hear. And largely women are already socialized that one's "success" as a woman is in how non-threatening we are (hence the accusations of "angry Black woman" and "bitch" to delegitimize women's grievances and exclude women from power.) It's not actually a great thing for marginalized people. It's a much better standard for people whose social position grants them too much license to get away with things others can't (and no one should).
@siderea That's also a very good point, thank you for making it! There are some people whose assumptions of safety are rooted in oppression and the rest of us are already expected to protect them from the consequences of their actions.
At the same time, overall, with all the complexities in mind, I think it's not a terrible way to judge a life. But it's a better gauge if we look at people in situations where they have relative power.
@evantesseract Yes. I don't want to suggest that safety isn't a human good. But it has been hijacked by applying a double standard of who is responsible for it, making it the job of the oppressed not to threaten the privileges of their oppressors while allowing the oppressors to abdicate any responsibility toward the safety of those they oppress.
@siderea This actually gets to the heart of the matter for me: that we should always keep relative power in mind when we talk about social reality.
Ideally, as individuals, when we have more power we should use it to aid, support, protect - if we use it at all. We should be aware of it and try to ensure we don't misuse it.
And when we talk about society writ large, it's important to keep in mind that the playing field isn't level.
Thank you.
Michael 🗝@kevlarsen as an adoptive parent this hits home.
Tom von Clef@kevlarsen maybe that's good, but it sounds like an excessive focus on safety, or like "safetyism"
@tomvonclef I understand the concern. Anything can be taken to an extreme. It's similar to problems in utilitarianism about the highest happiness might lead to drug use or discriminating against a minority. So, yes, you're right. About this moment everyone is figuring out that safety at #twitter should've been a concern rather than cashing out to Musk. #noxp
Soozcat@kevlarsen Love this. There are so many ways to measure #success that don't follow the absolutely toxic business model.
Rai Aren 🖖✨📚🇺🇦@kevlarsen
Ben Franklin would object!
Ben Franklin would object!
NKT@kevlarsen some of us do. I do - the nature of my job is visiting people often having a very bad day and helping them in. Scaring customers is unwise! Being apparently safe is definitely a positive.
Christie Dudley@kevlarsen I find this meme quite disturbing for two reasons.
First, I frequently call people to question their values and what they thought they trusted. I make people feel less safe by calling what they felt was safe into question.
Second, racists make other racists feel safe by keeping those "colored folks" in their place.
Neither of these is what we're after.
@longobord The best way to explain it is in a world where success is defined by amount of safety overall, racists would be made to feel *unsafe* in order for them to change their behavior, to show racists disfavor and consequences for not allowing others to be safe.
@kevlarsen That is completely orthogonal to the success=made to feel safe model.
People feel unsafe when they are faced with things that they do not know how to respond to. It would be the most bland, unchallenging, homogenous world you could possibly imagine.
@longobord I had to look up orthogonal and it said something about right angles. Anyway, there would be varieties and shades of success and racists would be less successful in life by definition of success=amount of safety and people wouldn't want to be around them.
@kevlarsen Orthogonal means that it is neither parallel or perpendicular and doesn't really have anything to do with anything.
What it sounds like you're really saying is that you haven't considered that most racists and homophobes and the like are like that because they fear people who are different from themselves, which is a fundamental tenet of all those -isms.
@kevlarsen We already live in a world where we capitalize on a sense of security. The entire trademark system and corporate "goodwill" are based on generating a sense of security and confidence. Such a system is what we already have.
@longobord To an extent, yes. Some days, like right about now, it doesn't seem that way.
@kevlarsen That's why so many people will say it will settle itself out without intervention.
@longobord I disagree with them, even though I know what they're talking about. Corporate profit is *more* important than safety and global warming and things like that, and that is what the original post is about, that if safety were more important than profit, it would be an extremely different world we would live in.
@kevlarsen Except corporate profits RELY on safety, as much as they rely on producing at the lowest price. As such, they are more than happy to press known false claims so you continue to FEEL SAFE with regards to what they do cheaply.
They try real hard to make people feel safe, even when they're not. That is very much part of the problem.
@longobord That's an excellent point. We rely on corporate ads and corporate media that tell us we're safe when they can't be relied on to tell us the whole truth since "shading the truth" will help their bottom line. I suppose anything can be 'hacked' to get a different result than intended.
@kevlarsen People have believed they were safer than ever before, and even more afraid than they ever have been. But what they're afraid of does not track at all to what's unsafe.
@longobord I have a book about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature that we indeed are safer from violence, AND at the same time since we have technology where we see more injustice and suffering in the world and therefore have more real anxiety about the world. So after you explained this part, I understand how you think this all is disturbing because it goes down a road of 'perception management', a disturbing topic all on its own.
@kevlarsen "Safe" really is a perception term... What is dangerous and what is fine depends a lot on where you're willing to look.
ZiziMy exact reaction anytime someone uses "orthogonal" 😂. How do you even pronounce that word.
@longobord I went back to this post because I don't think I addressed it all the way. Yes you want to confront people on their White Fragility. The original post is about safety as a human good in general being most important rather than profit maximization. When you get into deep topics like racism, discomforting people can be a better idea in the long run, with the ultimate goal of most safety for the most people https://youtu.be/YvIO2GU8yTU
How 'white fragility' reinforces racism
@kevlarsen It's not just white fragility! That's not really my thing... I address problems I see in thinking in general... like your original proposition... Ideas that sound great but have terrible flaws... and also male fragility, which I have experienced frequently and with vigor.
My point still stands. Capitalism and a sense of safety are intertwined. Encouraging people to value safety won't even move the needle in any problem we face.
MagnaCorpus@longobord @kevlarsen
I'm curious about two things:
1. How are you defining 'success' because the meme obviously doesn't define it and depending on the definition 'success' could be a good thing or a bad thing
2. When you say you call people to question their values, do you mean you're challenging their assumptions/world view and pushing them out of their comfort zone?
I think there's a key difference between feeling safe and feeling comfortable. If you're safe you can still be uncomfortable.
@longobord @kevlarsen I'd encourage everyone (White people especially) to be uncomfortable but to try and provide safety to those who are marginalized or those who have never known safety.
Safety allows for growth and development. Discomfort requires education and adjustment and hopefully leads to enlightenment.
@BrionS @longobord I won't speak for the original author, but my opinion on the art of the tweet is that it's social commentary that the world would be a vastly different and better place if people had high status for people feeling safe around them rather than how much money they had. for question 2, yes is the answer. As for safe and comfortable being different things, people still conflate the two, and use the excuse they're not in a "safe space" to never confront their prejudices
@kevlarsen @longobord
I'm not a psychologist, but I consider 'being safe' as relating to psychological and emotional safety, while 'being comfortable' has more to do with being in a context that supports you.
Safe spaces can and should be both a place where one feels psychologically safe and contextually accepted.
On the other hand a Skinhead could be in a safe space with like-minded individuals and be comfortable that what spews from their mouth will be met with acceptance.
@kevlarsen @longobord
Nearly everyone has a safe space by themselves or with others where they feel accepted and comfortable.
In conversations about race White people invariably steer the conversation into a context in which they feel comfortable. It's not exclusive to White people, but it's the predominant problem in conversations about race.
Just the notion, the words, 'White Fragility' puts folks on the defensive saying anything to bring the context back to a place they feel comfortable.
@BrionS (ok this time I put the content warning on because the author of White Fragility is unapologetic using the term white people and I heard people get banned for that here) White Fragility is a great book! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility It is about how white people are uncomfortable talking about race or even acknowledging it exists, that, they as white people even have privilege. Anyway, the author and I would say people hide behind needing safe spaces to not talk about race.
@kevlarsen That's certainly an interesting take on it. I'm sure the author might agree to a point, but many public spaces are inherently safe for some people and not others. Making it more safe for others at the cost of comfort for the first is neither a zero-sum game, nor intrinsically a bad thing. Safe spaces are a refuge from hostile spaces. There is no need to present the status quo by making predominantly White spaces safe for White people.
@BrionS (if you read the article, you'll understand the content warning) I get tired of repeating myself, but as I already said in order to get the maximum amount of safety for the maximum amount of people, people have to be made uncomfortable and feeling unsafe in the short term for more safety in the long term. This is the best article I can find to explain it. https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a25747603/silencing-black-voices/
@kevlarsen
Good article but didn't explain how hiding conversation about race behind a trigger warning is anything more than protecting White feelings.
In fact it seems to be the very silencing the article talks about and so I find it ironic.
@BrionS Not ironic, descriptive. It explains why a content warning would have to be used at all.
@kevlarsen I'm saying the author is not arguing to keep White people comfortable. She's exclaiming how every time marginalized people - specifically Black people in her case - speak truth to power they are silenced.
Do you not see the problem of hiding discussions of race and racism behind a content warning? Who is it protecting? Black people want, indeed NEED White people to talk about race.
What if I am Black? Does the content warning not silence me?
(Spoiler Alert: I'm not, but it would.)
@BrionS It's protecting me from getting reported by people that don't recognize their own racism. And yes it is a zero-sum game, Black people have been told to "get their own instance" if they don't like Mastodon. I can say that without fear of being reprisal because that's demonstrably true.
@kevlarsen Oh good. We're on the same page then. The trigger warning is for White people, not marginalized people.
I have seen the 'go find your own instance' remarks and it's demeaning and degrading.
What it's really saying is, 'You're not welcome here. Go away!'
While it's possible for such instances to exist (and perhaps they do), it's nothing short of blatant racism and division. Twitter-that-was had its problems but it gave a voice to marginalized people. Mastodon is failing to do that.
Cat Power@kevlarsen we definitely as a species must redefine success. To me, it's raising my kids to be empathetic and to help others. How would you redefine success?
@catpower It's a combination of things at the same time. If you want to look into it more I recommend you take this course (Yes, I actually took this course) Moral Foundations of Politics https://www.coursera.org/learn/moral-politics A Theory of Justice is the best way to describe the just society, and, until recently, was the preferred way to understand justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice Defining #success is something I struggle with every day since people get it so wrong all the time.
bearofhtown@kevlarsen I couldn't agree more!
Bob Smith
Keith J Chouinard 
@jonathanldent @kevlarsen as a small extremely #empathic #child I would stop and #listen and #feel and #sense how #safe I was around a new person. It didn't always help since children can be pretty much at the #mercy of adults - but it #taught me much
katie@kevlarsen love this
Milli@kevlarsen Out of everything I hear from those around me, the compliment that probably warms my heart the most is when my partner tells me they feel safe with me. The feeling of safety is so important.
Earthtenant@kevlarsen That would be truly great!
AdaZell@kevlarsen I really love this! What a beautiful world this could create.
Shush🗽WearADamnMask😷💉💉💉
Grumpy_Kanibal@kevlarsen The world would be a better place.