schmanielNov 15, 2022
annaraven

Now that I can edit this post, to more accurate info: please
avoid using a LOT of hashtags in the body of your posts. (Not just for users of screenreaders but also for ND folks who have trouble with visually busy text. )

Do be sure to CamelCase your hashtags for screenreaders.

Here's a great discussion on the topic: https://legal.social/@krisnelson/109351256065488083

Also some screenreaders (and a lot of ND brains) can skip a block of hashtags at the bottom:
#VisuallyImpaired #blind #accessibility

@[email protected] (@[email protected])

As someone who regularly uses screen readers and works with blind colleagues who rely on screen readers to access the internet, please let me assure you that using #hashtags within the body of a post is not a problem. You don’t need to move them to the end! It is helpful to use #CamelCase to avoid gibberish for many word combos, but the extra # is so minimal as to disappear given how much else screen readers say & how fast they speak to experienced users.

Legal.Social
Nov 13, 2022 at 4:55amWeb
Show threadJulie JuliannNov 13, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie thank you for saying this, I'll change how I do hashtags.
Show threadannaravenNov 13, 2022
@Juliann @EverydayMoggie you're quite welcome. Just trying to pass along what I've been picking up. If you read my pinned intro, you'll see that I didn't know either.
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022
@Juliann Please check out my update on this.
Show threadNik Nov 13, 2022

@annaraven

This is hashtag amazing. Hashtag everyone should spend a day with a hashtag screen reader or other hashtag accessibility tools.

Thank you for making this hashtag real.

#hashtag #accessibiity

@EverydayMoggie

Show threadannaravenNov 13, 2022
@inik Someone else actually posted something like this which I thought was amazingly useful to understand better the situation. I wish I had bookmarked their post so I could give them credit.
Show threaddpflugNov 15, 2022
@inik @annaraven @EverydayMoggie No lie, accessibility should be a required class in all UX/web design curriculum. Screen readers are set up day 1 and mandatory throughout. Sections dedicated to keyboard-only navigation, pointer-only (using Dasher for text input), and voice-only.
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022
@inik Please do see my update tho.
Show threadiamBullivantNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Good point. Will adopt.
Show threadartskorpsNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie thank tou for this valuable hint! and i thought i was extra smart by including the hashtags πŸ™„
Show threadannaravenNov 14, 2022
@artskorps @EverydayMoggie I thought the same thing! That's why it hit me so hard when someone posted about it.
Show threadSven Tiffe Nov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie wow. Thank you for raising awareness! I didn't consider this before! #baffled
Show threadπŸ“·Nov 14, 2022

@annaraven @EverydayMoggie

Hadn't considered that. It would be nice if hashtags were stored in their own field. That would encourage people to save them for last, allow for a separate tag character count that doesn't count against your post, and provide container that screen readers to skip over or enter into by choice.

Show threadMoNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Thank you. I will try to remember that
Show threadKent BrewsterNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie I have also read that screen readers will have an easier time understanding compound-word hashtags if they are written in CamelCase, with the first letter of each word (including the first word) capitalized. Does this make sense?
Show threadWendy MsGator 🐊Nov 14, 2022

@kentbrew @annaraven @EverydayMoggie

Yes, and it is precisely what was requested last night by a sight impaired user. If you don't put caps at the start of each word in the hashtag, the computer will read out #AllTheWordsAsOneLongWord or even worse, will spell out the whole thing.

That should really be a thing for #AllTheHashtagsThatWeUseInMastodon .

Show threadKent BrewsterNov 15, 2022

@WendyMsGator @annaraven @EverydayMoggie

Got it, thanks for your patience!

Show threadJody WallaceNov 15, 2022
@kentbrew @annaraven @EverydayMoggie CAMEL case! I feel like I heard that somewhere before but I just now got it. Love it.
Show threadkeeps vis.social runningNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Oh! I am definitely gonna have to break some bad habits, and put the hashtags at the bottom of the post. We have room for it here, after all. :)
Show threadkeeps vis.social runningNov 14, 2022

@annaraven @EverydayMoggie What is the polite way to quote you but so that it goes to my local timeline. I'm admin on my instance, and I'd like as many folks as possible, on my instance, to see this.

Should I quote the text, with your handle at the end? Or something else?

Show threadannaravenNov 14, 2022
@[email protected] for asking. Feel free to copy and paste and tag me if you like. I paraphrased someone else, so it's fine to do whatever gets the message out, in my opinion.
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022

@kristinHenry FYI: Please quote this discussion instead:

https://legal.social/@krisnelson/109351256065488083

It's a more nuanced discussion on the issue.

@[email protected] (@[email protected])

As someone who regularly uses screen readers and works with blind colleagues who rely on screen readers to access the internet, please let me assure you that using #hashtags within the body of a post is not a problem. You don’t need to move them to the end! It is helpful to use #CamelCase to avoid gibberish for many word combos, but the extra # is so minimal as to disappear given how much else screen readers say & how fast they speak to experienced users.

Legal.Social
Show threadAlinaNov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie This makes perfect sense. It's difficult to read for those with vision issues and neurological issues as well. Hashtags interrupt the flow of a sentence and demand an entirely new sort of visual-cognitive capacity.
Show threadYi Gu (Evie)Nov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie @fifilamoura I HAD no idea! Thank you very much for the post.
Show threadMarina  Nov 14, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie 🀯
Show threadCautionWIP πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆNov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Didn’t realize it worked that way…Thanks for the headsup! :)
Show threadDiligent Circle δΈΈNov 15, 2022

@annaraven I feel like you're overstating how much inline hashtags mess up screen readers to be honest. I admittedly don't rely on screen readers for accessibility reasons, but I do know how to use one and occasionally use it to listen to articles, and hearing the screen reader say "hash" in front of words randomly (that's how it says the # character in Orca, the screen reader on my system) I don't think is any more distracting than the visual presence of one in the middle of a sentence.

To be fair, I do find inline hashtags a bit unreasonably distracting reading visually, and I agree that putting them at the bottom is a lot cleaner. I just don't think it's especially significant as an accessibility concern for screen readers, specifically.

πŸ¦‡

Show threadannaravenNov 15, 2022
@diligentcircle since it seems to help everyone to have it at the bottom instead of inline, I'd rather do that.
Show threadDeb has moved! (see profile) πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Nov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie very good to know! Thanks
Show threadBunkuninNov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Effective explanation!
Show threadAaronXRNov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie I have, in the past used hashtags in the body of my posts, but I think just adding one or two at the bottom will be what I do from now on
Show threadRichard BairwellNov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Out if interest do you use a screen reader? It's just that to me (a relatively abled bodied reasonably sighted person) a "problem" like that might have been pointed out by @Cassana in her post https://pagan.plus/@Cassana/109336771390982729
Cassana (@[email protected])

Content warning: long post on accessibility advice from a blind screen reader user

Pagan+
Show threadannaravenNov 15, 2022

@rbairwell I do not. I'm paraphrasing a post (lost to the mists of time because I was too new and didn't bookmark it) by a person who does use a screenreader.

I found it quite impactful and so I was just trying to pass the message along. I would boost the original post if I ever saw it again.

Show threadBeth D KicinskiNov 15, 2022

@annaraven @EverydayMoggie

I will definitely keep this in mind for future posts.

#learning #CommunityValues

Show threadJakob RosinNov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie Thanks for saying this. Hashtaging every word makes it sounds actually desperate for me. :)
Show threadNat Doig (she/her)Nov 15, 2022

@annaraven @EverydayMoggie also it’s just easier to read full stop like this.

I don’t use a screen reader but I’m visually impaired. Having text littered with hashtags is much harder for me to read than if they’re neatly at the bottom.

Show threadYaffi LvovaNov 15, 2022
@annaraven thanks for this! It’s appreciated.
#inclusion
Show threadBart Sz.Nov 15, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie How likely is it for this kind of thing to be incorporated into the screen reader software to handle better? Like a feature that would read sentences without the β€œhashtag” and optionally tell you which words were the hashtags at the end?
Show threadAHotPinkMessNov 15, 2022

@annaraven @EverydayMoggie

OMG, thank you. That's horrific, I will try my best to put hashtags at the bottom from now on.

Show threadJan HildegardNov 16, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie thanks for educating me. I'll be sure to put my hashtags at the bottom of my posts from now on, unless absolutely unavoidable.
Show threadDave (He/Him/His)Nov 16, 2022
@annaraven I use a screen reader with speech, and don't really find inline hash tags to be an issue. Someone with a Braille display might find it painful.
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022
@wx1g Thanks. Glad to know it's not as bad of an issue for everyone that I'd gotten the impression from others. So, if I screw up, I'm not causing major discomfort for people - that's reassuring.
Show threadmaddymulNov 16, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie thank you so much for this! I will do my utmost to be better at accessibility.
Show threadBob Mottram :debian:Nov 16, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie #Epicyon doesn't have hashtags at the bottom, but uses aria-hidden to avoid screen reading the hash symbol.
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022

Okay everyone, please read this discussion instead, from actual screenreader users!

https://legal.social/@krisnelson/109351256065488083

TL,DR:
Inline hashtags aren't so bad with most screenreaders for experienced users, but are still visual clutter for many sighted ND people. It's okay to have a few inline but try to avoid having a lot of them. Definitely DO use CamelCase for your hashtages.

Thanks to everyone who boosted my post because we're all trying to do better. My apologies for any misinformation.

@[email protected] (@[email protected])

As someone who regularly uses screen readers and works with blind colleagues who rely on screen readers to access the internet, please let me assure you that using #hashtags within the body of a post is not a problem. You don’t need to move them to the end! It is helpful to use #CamelCase to avoid gibberish for many word combos, but the extra # is so minimal as to disappear given how much else screen readers say & how fast they speak to experienced users.

Legal.Social
Show threadannaravenNov 16, 2022
@ParolePerdute Thanks - please check out my update tho.
Show threadannaravenNov 17, 2022
Thanks @bgtlover
please do read and boost my update too. Thanks so much!
Show threadbgt loverNov 17, 2022
@annaraven thanks for what exactly? I may have provided some information along the lines of what's being discussed here, as I promote the fediverse a lot and wherever I can, but I don't remember specifically helping with this particular thread. In any case, I'm always glad to help
Show threadHortiHughNov 17, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌ
Show threadEagle EyedNov 17, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie This however, is a personal preference. As a blind person myself, having the hashtags scattered through out posts is perfectly readable and i actually find it more readable than having hashtags in a block at the end.
I also know plenty of other #ScreenReader users who would agree with me.
But again this is based soully on personal preference and it doesn't matter which way you do it as there's no single answer from us #screenReader users.
#accessibility
Show threadmatthijsNov 17, 2022
@annaraven @EverydayMoggie
Guilty as charged. I will change that from now on.
Thanks for the tip
Show threadannaravenNov 17, 2022
@matthijs Please see my update tho.
Show threadDavidNov 18, 2022

@annaraven Thanks for this great info! Is there a place where the original post still lives? I'm sure you have reasons for editing it, but I loved the gentle artistry of your presentation. It was like being able to inhabit someone else's world for a moment. I think about it now whenever I write something on here, and I've changed my hashtagging, even on some of my old posts. Cheers!

#accessibility #hashtag

Show threadannaravenNov 19, 2022
@dnotes Um, I'm told there's a way to revert to see previous edits but I'm not sure how.
Show threadannaravenNov 19, 2022
@dnotes
I figured out how to screenshot the original. Here it is.
Show threadDavidNov 20, 2022
@annaraven yes, i think this was brilliant. :)
Show threadannaravenNov 19, 2022
@dnotes Also, you're very kind to say so.