Aris KatzourakisI am particularly vexed by the continued usage of #ImmunityDebt. It is not an established concept, and has never been used prior to the pandemic. And it mixes and matches a) population immunity, which is trivially true, b) individual severity effects, which are not, c) has echoes of the still controversial 'hygiene hypothesis', and d) uses a loaded colloquialism - 'debt' - to whom, and why? Would much prefer we stuck to precise terminology.
Nick Loman@ariskatzourakis Ooh, we can probably have conversations over here like this safely!? I agree, it doesn't make much sense at all. What do you make of all this stuff about COVID-19 immune system impairment as the "alternative" hypothesis? I think the very real post-COVID healthcare system effects might explain most observations.
@pathogenomenick This is the hope-that we can have conversations about topics like this, without, for example, being quote-tweeted by a hypothetical account with over 100,000 followers that likes controversy, and enjoys setting their followers and bots on the tweeter. Though its worth not naming such hypothetical examples because if you say their name three times they open a Mastodon account.
@pathogenomenick as for the alternate hypothesis, I think its plausible to suggest that the after effects of covid in rare cases can contribute to pathology of subsequent infection. And because of sheer numbers, 'rare' things appear often. But like you say-healthcare system effects are very real and certainly matter.
Willem van Schaik@ariskatzourakis @pathogenomenick too late, it has already happened allegedly
J.H.Noyes@pathogenomenick @ariskatzourakis
IMO, nothing settles arguments like pathology. The following is a link to a panel hosted by the lead author of the NIH study SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Persistence Throughout the Human Body and Brain. Discussion begins at 33:50 and can be followed reasonably well without viewing the first half of the video, though it is certainly there if you want it:
SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Persistence Throughout the Human Body and Brain
This will be an NIH–FDA COVID-19 SIG lecture concerning findings from the NIH COVID-19 Autopsy Consortium. Daniel Chertow is a tenure-track investigator in the Critical Care Medicine Department at the NIH Clinical Center and in the Laboratory of Immunoregulation at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.<br><br>For more information go to <a href="https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/covid-19-sig-lecture-series">https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/covid-19-sig-lecture-series</a>
Helena Pérez Valle@ariskatzourakis I’m keen to hear more about this! Completely agreed re: precise immunology, but is there an accepted explanation for what people seem to be experiencing as more severe colds/flus post-pandemic? And do we have names for it?
Col@minimammoth @ariskatzourakis are they more severe though? I wonder if what we're seeing is more coinfections as a result of the tripledemic of rsv, flu and covid.
Looking forward to some useful insights please Aris and #medmastadon!
Looking forward to some useful insights please Aris and #medmastadon!
@The_Colbobs @ariskatzourakis oh, absolutely possible of course! Is there a way to know? And if this is the case, why are we getting more co-infections than we used to? The people I’ve known who’ve had this ‘really awful cold/flu’ tested negative for COVID throughout.
Mathew SamuelI prefer the term #ImmunityTheft. Or the #LeonardiEffect.
The theft of years from your immune system age by depleting it of naive T cells. Or immune system dysfunction due to overstimulation, Tcell death.
Kim Crawley (she/her) 😷🍉Immunity theft. Perfect!
Grant Jacobs BioinfoTools NZ@ariskatzourakis FWIW, leaving aside issues of the concept itself, I’m seeing reasoning about populations v. individuals "crossed over" in a lot of things in ways that make me uncomfortable. Seeing the "immunity debt" issue arise locally (i.e. within NZ Twitter) last night reminded me of it again.
@NotJustDNA yes I agree, and it ties in to this harmful not of infections somehow being considered a net good.
𝚃𝚘𝚖 𝙻𝚊𝚠𝚝𝚘𝚗 
@ariskatzourakis I think a lot of the arguments in The Other Place (which I've tried to avoid engaging with!) stem from exactly the points you make. "Reduced herd immunity" didn't really need a new term, "immunity debt" doesn't make much sense at the individual level, and as you say "debt" is a heavily loaded term.
Lars Mølgaard Saxhaug@LawtonTri @ariskatzourakis Whatever one feels about the term, I think many have fallen into the same trap as with herd immunity. Denying the true phenomenon it describes, rather than constructively focusing on what it actually means and the simple fact that population immunity is much more costly in lives and life quality if attained by infection rather than by vaccination.
@load_dependent @ariskatzourakis that's why I stayed out of it! Too many people (even accomplished scientists) using the term in an ambiguous fashion (when it's really unnecessary for it to exist in the first place as per @ariskatzourakis above) which was causing a lot of trouble.
@load_dependent @LawtonTri part of the problem though is what people take the term to mean. If it was simply a 'compression' of infections in a shorter period of time, which is one of the less objectionable uses of it, that would be one thing. But many imply a lot more than that.
@LawtonTri yeah, invented terminology basically helps nobody
David Joffe PhD FRACPIt's the #Leonardi_Effect
Immune system damage from COVID. The "immune debt" is such stupid!
Someone with the appropriate skill set should track usage of the term back to the disinformation boiler room responsible for introducing it. I'm going out on a limb and saying early adopters will be responsible for introducing many other dubious narratives into the debate.
Providers should stay as far away from the term as possible, particularly when dealing with children. Acquired immune deficiencies are unlikely to be regarded as 'debts' during malpractice proceedings.
Yaneer Bar-Yam@ariskatzourakis It would be great if you could write a summary of the issues.
MvRiederberg – mavori@ariskatzourakis at least in middle europe, the influence of ideas from antroposophy and homeopathy are obious. The lack of a profound knowledge of the functioniong and development of immune system exp. in pediatric doctors is striking – and misleading many decision makers