Anyway, setting aside the ethical concerns, it seems perfectly clear that "setting aside the ethical concerns" is *precisely* the problem.
It is what got us in to this nightmare, and it is what is keeping us in this nightmare.
Please stop pretending that "setting aside the ethical concerns" is anything but a verbal signal indicating one's unwillingness to take personal responsibility for one's actions.
@randomgeek @GeePawHill @sakhavi oof.
Dude, that might be a bit offsides
@randomgeek @GeePawHill @sakhavi you are not wrong
It's just sometimes you wonder if using the steel toed boots while they are getting kicked while they are down is warranted
I mean, I'm just awaiting confirmation mostly.
Mostly.
@gizmomathboy and on a more earnest note, I leave plenty of room for "I hate this but I love my family so I gotta," or even an explicit "I don't care about what you call the ethical concerns."
Wouldn't want to hang out with that second person—and the first might be a bummer too—but I appreciate the honest appraisal.
@randomgeek I in no way disagree with you at any point.
In fact I might have supplied said pipe or applied said pipe to the task at hand
Occasionally I have a moment of objective disengagement that analyzes a scenario and go... "Dayum"
Some times
@sakhavi @GeePawHill Among others, people who want to talk about some aspect of a thing that has ethical concerns other than the ethical concerns
(I'm not disputing that "setting aside the ethical concerns" can be abused, but it does have legitimate uses.)
@barbra @sakhavi @GeePawHill First a caveat: I've seen many cases where that kind of response comes from someone who is not actually open to being educated. I hope that's not the case here.
"Setting aside the ethical concerns of the pollution caused by internal combustion engines, they're not an economically efficient way to move people around."
or
"Setting aside the ethical concerns of the loss of privacy that would come from proving P=NP, it would be a huge boon to mathematical research."
---
What does "setting aside ethical concerns" mean to you? It might be easy to clear this up by comparing our understandings of the phrase.
I *still* don’t have to set aside ethical concerns! Those examples would be better served by “Cars are economically inefficient … they also …” or “Balancing damage P=NP might do to X with advantages to Y” etc.
The _phrase_ “setting aside ethical concerns” is only needed to normalize setting aside ethical concerns. Using it even when you don’t mean to set them aside gives cover to those who do. In a small way, but the effort of rephrasing is also small.
@clew @diazona @sakhavi @GeePawHill
The worst part about gas-powered vehicles is that at the beginning of the previous century auto manufacturers bought up and closed many bus and streetcar companies and closed them, forcing the public to buy has-powered automobiles. So the auto manufacturers did what became a habit - setting aside ethical concerns to further their own interests.
It's pretty obvious "setting aside ethical concerns" is just an excuse to screw others over.
@barbra @clew @sakhavi @GeePawHill Sorry I didn't make this clear, but neither of my examples are factual statements. They're just made-up sentences that demonstrate use of the phrase "setting aside ethical concerns".
This may actually be a better example: "Setting aside whether either of my earlier examples are true, I believe we are working from very different definitions of the phrase 'setting aside <something>'". (This one is true.)
Specifically, to me "setting aside X, ..." means acknowledging that X may be (or is) a real concern, but wanting to discuss some other aspect for which X doesn't matter.
(1/2)
@barbra @clew @sakhavi @GeePawHill Like with the AI example, "Setting aside ethical concerns, LLMs don't even help productivity" means I'm acknowledging that there are ethical concerns, but I want to talk about LLMs' effect on productivity without considering the ethical concerns for a moment.
Much of what I see in this thread, regarding setting aside ethics being irresponsible, comes across to me as saying nobody is allowed to talk about any aspect of LLMs other than the ethics. Do they work? Sorry, not allowed to discuss that, so we'll never know. Are they economical? Can't talk about that either. I'm sure that's not what y'all really mean, I'm just making the point that what surely starts out as a sensible point on your end is coming across as something less sensible on my end because of the phrasing.
(2/2)
Your first example has historically been disproven. For all most a century, gasoline has been an economical way of getting from point a to point b, because setting aside the external costs (such as health effects of pollution) is "setting aside ethical concerns".
" Setting aside ethical concerns" is just an attempt to justify short-term short-sighted thinking, which leads to the tragedy of the commons.
We live in the real world, where "setting aside ethical concerns" always has negative consequences. That's a fact even your second proposed example demonstrates.
That's like, the literal embodiment of evil though. When we set aside the ethical concerns, what we have left is, BY DEFINITION unethical. And how every absolute nonce that genuinely uses that phrase fails to realize that, even after much coaxing, is completely beyond me...
check what "nonce" means (hint: it doesn't mean "dumb")
@GeePawHill the function it can be useful in pointing out that something is functionally bad, to people who are beguiled by productivism. but at least frame it properly.
“if you are determined to ignore the ethical concerns, like (brief list of those concerns), if you are dead-set on abdicating your responsibly to the community for self-benefit, here's why it doesn't achieve self-benefit either.” then follow up with a dry-dick technical explanation that will satisfy even the quants
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