Mastodawn

is linux ableist? how?

some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.

they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more

#askfedi #Linux #ableism #help

social elephant in the room 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia

Just calling linux ableist without more specificity is weird, I would let it slide.

I read here (I think) that it was not great for people with impaired vision. That I can accept, a user trying it first hand and pointing at some shortcomings. (It is massively build by volounteers after all.)

Perhaps more ND people in here would like to chip in... Even then, I would say ND people don't fit in a single basket... My ND friend is a heavily advanced linux user... (NixOS)

Melon Poly!4d ago

@tseitr
yeah, i do agree on that last part. i am also ND and thats part of my confusion tbh. but i do not want to argue or assume and try to understand instead (especially since they tend to put the onus of educating on the other person). i do not know what their struggles are, though as far as i can tell they do not have vision problems. accessibility options in general are something ive thought of, i do not know what or how many accessibility options there are on linux distros (even the one i use, which is linux mint) compared to windows and mac.

Aaron Brick — אהרן בריק 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia I understand the claim this way: Person A suggests Linux to Person B, who has already decided that it is too difficult, therefore the suggestion is ableist. Person B should probably stick to using a Speak and Spell.

dirk dierickx 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia not anymore,i would say this was true in the past, but these days, anybody can use it. But ofcourse, old sayings die hard, so a lot of people still think they're still valid.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia All operating systems are ableist as they are made with nondisabled people in mind. However, the question is which of them provides the best support or tech that allows disabled folks to access most features in the OS?

A lot of linux systems do not have accessibility tech (like screenreaders). It often lacks features for those that require visual or audio adjustments. Windows or Macs have some, but Disability community is still fighting for more accessibility within an OS.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia Now having said that, this isn't to say all linux OS are inaccessible. I found Ubuntu to have similar accessibility options to Windows, but the upkeep of those access options are not done well. Linux devs often fail to include the voices of disabled folks when determining features to implement. sometimes devs may belittle us if we try to bring up these issues. Why? Because devs aren't willing to examine their own biases.

We live in an ableist society and taught to be that way.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia Again, all OS systems suffer from ableism to some degree, but for disabled folks, Linux in particular can be like salt in a wound. We expected better from that community, and often we're left with scraps. We already deal with scraps from Windows and Macs.

Accessibility ought to be the core to any OS system as that would improve it for all people, not just disabled folks. But until we convince devs of that, OS systems will remain ableist to some degree.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia As for you being ableist for recommending linux? I wouldn't consider you so. I would consider your suggestion to be somewhat ignorant of the complexity regarding access with various OS systems. You reaching out to ask questions to better understand shows you care, so thank you for that.

I'm willing to chat more about it, but I'm out of energy now so need rest. So my replies may take a bit.

Melon Poly!4d ago

@Aaidanbird
thank you so much for this! i did overlook that first fact (OSes being ableist because they have nondisabled people in mind) even though im aware of it in institutions and architecture. it makes complete sense to me now. despite being disabled for awhile it wasnt until relatively recently that i started even considering myself disabled and even more recently started learning about and how to fight ableism. its tough but essential work for the people around me but also for myself. I'm grateful for the help!

also, linux communities handing out scraps and devs unwilling to examine their biases sounds awful. I've dealt with similar experiences with other communities. its been really frustrating and feels worse when they not only do the bare minimum but also do not react well to being asked to do more.

The Bird 3d ago

@insecteuthanasia

I suspect most devs and folks like me are working off the different definitions of access. Often, they'll slap on screenreaders and contrast options and call it good, but that's bare minimum and not all that better than windows.

Hearing of negative experiences of disabled folks trying to interact (or even contribute) is frustrating. Especially when devs or academics sweep in to claim it's all accessible.

Melon Poly!4d ago

also, would you mind if i boost these? i think its really informative and helpful!

Linux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️4d ago

@insecteuthanasia @Aaidanbird

Under system settings there's usually a section for accessibility (this way in OpenSUSE which I'm using at this moment). Basically, I don't need most of these enhancements, but I do increase the size of the cursor. There are also specific distros for accessibility. Orca is the screen reader for Linux.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia

Yes, there are some access programs. I'm not saying there isn't any. But most aren't built into the OS itself. They are addons. Also knowing which linux distros have access options is difficult at best, which also makes it inaccessible.

The problem I'm identifying is that Operating Systems haven't been built with access in mind. Most are built for nondisabled bodies and minds, and that's the problem. We need to push to change the approach to building OS's.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia

In the meantime, we also need:
1. Easily read and findable access guides to accessible linux OS.
2. Make access tech easily useable or easy to find and install for linux distros.
3. Create focus groups with disabled people present to collaborate on accessible features.
4. Bake access into future updates.
5. Craft better access features. (most offer bare min like windows if that) and highlight these to our community to show ways linux improves access.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia

Linux is working against a very negative image of being:
1. Elitist and for programmers mostly.
2. Requiring heavy and often inaccessible setup to install and operate.
3. Many different types that overwhelm those researching. Little to no guides written for nontechnical users.

To overcome that requires work and collaboration with disabled community. It's doable but difficult.

Linux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️4d ago

@Aaidanbird @insecteuthanasia

I'm an academic historian. I've been using Linux since 2003 and since 2005 only Linux (although I maintain my partner's Win system). I once tried to install Windows from scratch - so many hoops to go through just to get to installation. Anyone being an initial user with Linux should start with Mint. From there you can progress (I've been a distro hopper since 2005). It's all FUD. Linux is perfectly accessible now and doesn't track or compel you to use AI.
As to your other point, of course developers should consult people with disabilities, but there are specialist Linux distros out there.
There is a list of distros with features for accessibility with Orca pre-installed.
https://itsfoss.com/visual-impaired-linux/

6 Linux Distros for Visually Impaired People

What are some of the best Linux distros for visually impaired users? Let's take a look.

It's FOSS

The Bird 3d ago

@insecteuthanasia

Saying it is perfectly accessible now is highly dismissive of my comments and the experiences of disabled people. Thanks for the link.

I don't think how you define "accessible" is the same definition most of us in disabled community use.

Access isn't just ability to install an OS. There is other features and options required for usability that not all distros have or if they do, it's minimal or not built into it.

When I'm feeling better I may compile a list.

The Bird 3d ago

@insecteuthanasia

The link given goes only to specialized features for visually impaired or blind, but that's not the only features needed. It's good to see progress, but that only brings linux to bare minimum, similar to windows.

To overcome the stigma requires partnerships with my community. To listen and take in what features are still missing and building that together. I've heard too many stories of folks burned by linux communities. That's really my main point here.

Linux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️3d ago

@Aaidanbird @insecteuthanasia

'perfectly accessible' was a comment on your point 1:

Elitist and for programmers mostly.

It's not elitist nor for programmers only. It's accessible to non-techies and non-programmers. That was my point in elucidating my background. You were obviously oblivious to the specialist distros. There are accessibility features in most distros under that nomenclature. Orca, as I mention, is pre-installed on some specialist distros and can be _easily_ installed later from the package manager. There are Linux users and Linux users - you don't need to stereotype us.

The Bird 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia
Sure.

@insecteuthanasia I don't think linux itself is abelist in this instance, it's the assumption that Linux is "correct" due to a neurodivergence and using that as an argument for an operating system

John Smith 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia sounds like a history problem your friend needs therapy for that you walked into through no fault of your own.

SevenDeadlyExes 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia on the contrary imho - i am ND and i switched to Linux Mint about a year ago and I think its great! It looks more or less the same as windows and does everything i need it to - but its all FOSS - which that alone is more accessible - because i can't afford software subscriptions on disability

✅🎯🙄4d ago

@insecteuthanasia Such people are idiots who don't wanna learn anything beyond Windows/MacOS.

Like installing Debian and teaching people how to use the store to add apps doesn't take much practice.

Pozorvlak 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia I don't think your friend was going to listen whatever you said!

SometimesLovely 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia
I am austic, with very moderate computer skills. I moved to mint, using a commercial usb device, i found the instructions to create a bootable drive confusing. I used it from this for a while before replacing windows.
I am general user, and was able to use this with no real issues. I expect i will be able to modify my set-up over time. Just one point for linux wizards, sometimes all we want, all we can do is pictures, email, browsing simple spreadsheets and typing letters

FruitConsumer 1d ago

@SometimesLovely @insecteuthanasia
Yeah, there could be some very clear noob documentation: "Want X thing? Open terminal and write 'sudo dnf bla bla'. Here is an explanation of what this command does. . ."
A lot of stuff's pretty simple ONCE you know it. But not having initial exposure to some things creates friction.

Even just a searchable dictionary could make people feel more grounded. (But typing out clear search queries does solve a lot of issues.)

Kerplunk 4d ago

@insecteuthanasia

they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself

I really love self professed Linux Experts who have Absolutely no idea of what they are talking about and have never used modern Linux on the desktop.

everything about a decent linux distribution is accessible to the user.

Short version: no, Linux is not ableist.

Longer version: the Linux ecosystem suffers a limited support for people with vision issues, yes.
But that's arguably the one "ableist" issue that can be attributed to Linux.

Offensive version: claiming Linux is not neurodivergent-friendly is... have you SEEN us linux people? To use an offensive stereotype: we are are hyperfixated nerds. You could probably use us as litmus test for neurodivergency.

lumilumi!!!2d ago

@insecteuthanasia
Ebay the heck...... I would also like to understand their logic...