AI6YR BenHmm, I am curious how many wheelchair users are asking for AI- and drone-enabled wheelchairs.
IEEE: AI Aims for Autonomous Wheelchair Navigation
New chairs track obstacles while drones map the room
Ash-Miw-Re@ai6yr Can't they just have the drone camera under their own control and have *actual* autonomy instead of relying on yet another stupid self-driving machine? (Not a wheelchair user, but raised by one)
Taran Rampersad@ai6yr it's a fair question.
Most people who are wheel enhanced i know love their autonomy and agency, but I do not know how many would welcome this.
Maybe this post will find people want it.
I did a wheelchair experiment in a hospital once. Naval Hospital Orlando, my last day as staff there, I did in a wheelchair in uniform.
It's amazing how different the world is from that perspective. And that was one day. Not a life.
I should write about that sometime. You jogged that memory.
key/rowan@knowprose I would note that "a day spent in a wheelchair perspective" by abled people is a genre that's a little bit (a lot bit) overdone, but the difference of it being at a naval hospital in uniform might be different enough to give it merit.
the thing is exactly as you said, that that's one single day and not a life, and whatever insight abled people think that they get into the life of someone using a wheelchair is. minimal, and things that disabled people and wheelchair users have been shouting from the rooftops for years. so the idea is that abled people shouldn't have had to spend a day using a wheelchair to have these realisations because that means that the attention isn't getting paid to actually disabled people.
i don't mean to come in all hostile in your reply, just wanted you to be aware that these sort of things are often not taken well in the disability community.
@californiummm Fair enough. It's just less than 8 hours I was in it.
But there is a story before it.
You be the judge. I was just coming back to the thread to post this, which I will.
@knowprose i think that there's still an element of sensationalism in this, although you did good by only mentioning her wheelchair when absolutely necessary.
and i think that to post an anecdote of this, even anonymised, is best done with the permission of the person. obviously this was years ago and you don't have that. you're using her incident for your blog "fragment".
if it had been my incident and i came across it floating around the internet in the wild i'd probably be furious; i'm trans and had plenty of incidents of having to get into a gyn chair from my wheelchair, pre-transition. none of them are fun, even the ones where i'm semi-ambulatory and needed less help and only steadying, and the ones with men involved really, really sucked. even though you treated it with some amount of care, you are writing about something that is highly personal. maybe not for you, but almost certainly for her.
i also appreciate that you didn't come to any grand conclusions about the time in the wheelchair, but i retain my previous point: all you said is shit that wheelchair users have been saying for years. for ever.
i don't know a wheelchair user, and i know a lot of other wheelchair users, who hasn't felt invisible and expressed our frustrations at being invisible. online in some way, shape, or form.
but in typical abled person fashion, you're talking about your experience without acknowledging the experiences of disabled individuals. you add your own voice to a bunch of other abled users still saying nothing new.
i don't know what sort of response you thought you'd get with this; i'm going to be kind and not tear this to shreds in public on my other account, because i have a much larger audience there.
if you leave it up, as is, i hope you end up feeling like shit about it, because honestly, that's all it is, is white man thinks they're something.
@californiummm Well, I did not sensationalize in any way that I can see.
That might just be my perspective. And that might be fair from your perspective.
But as a writer, I was honest about it.
I will leave it up. And I don't feel like shit for, as a young imperfect hospital corpsman back then, being humble enough to learn and try to understand other perspectives.
I am not perfect.
Neither are you.
Here we are.
@knowprose clearly you didn't learn the part where other people's lives aren't for your consumption. in that case? enjoy your newfound publicity.
@californiummm Clearly you're upset about something.
And I don't think it's me.
I think it's what I'm trying to point at with what I wrote.
Did you read it?
@knowprose yeah i'm upset because a dude thinks it's appropriate to post about lifting a girl in a gown into a gyn chair; go fuck yourself.
@californiummm Incidentally, I am not white. I am decidedly beige.
@knowprose struck out and corrected.
HilaryI was a bit surprised and interested at how this thread developed
But having now read your linked blog, yeah, you are a dickhead. Based on EXTREMELY limited experience, you are trying to make this about you. Not about actual wheelchair users.
Don't do that and just fuck off nicely
@regordane i really try my hardest not to make baseless accusations, because that's more hassle than it's worth. but also honestly, "man tries to make it all about himself", who's surprised?
and again, there's no way he has permission from that woman to share that very, very personal incident. as i edited my post to say, why the fuck did he have to include the detail of the speculum when he had said pelvic exam?
sensationalism.
@regordane What would have been horrible would have been assuming I did know about it.
It's the fact that I realized I did NOT is the point.
But you take from it what you wish.
It was my narrative. What happened. And I respected that young woman like I did every other patient. And she, in that moment, taught me a lot more than being criticized for writing about it.
Be well.
@ai6yr I wrote it up.
It's long, but I think the back story is important.
I learned a fraction of a fraction of what it was like.
And it felt good to write. Lived experience feels that way expressed. I didn't do enough of that this week.
@ai6yr Well... one critic that was upset.
They've blocked me after some insults, which is fine.
I want to clarify my intent, though.
I wrote about trust. I wrote about who is seen. I did it from the only perspective I have: mine.
It's honest.
So if others have things to say, fire away.
But my intent was simply to write what I know.
@knowprose Huh, explain what "Semper Gumby" is. I had seen someone else post that and had no idea it was actually a military thing.
@ai6yr It's a play on Semper Fidelis. 'Always faithful'.
When I was in, 'Gumby' was that flexible children's character.
So particularly Corpsmen who worked with Marines would say in my era, "Semper Gumby': Always flexible.
It fits a lot of things, so it went beyond that boundary. Something needs to get done, it gets done however you can.
Had a Corpsman I worked with that was called 'Doc Duct Tape'. Semper Gumby. :)
@ai6yr I actually had a Gumby pin I sometimes wore in the field on my back so people could tell who 'Doc' was.
LOL.
neville park@ai6yr what could possibly go wrong
poleguy looking for lost tools@ai6yr I'll have to read this, but my initial reaction is... yikes. Then I start wondering if the developers of this are wheelchair users themselves or just technologists trying to push technology into places that can make money... I'm such a cynic. :-(
Sarah E Bourne
cognitively accessible math
AccordionBruce
Megan Lynch (she/her)@ai6yr Given how these fascists trained AI, I expect the wheelchair will drive disabled people straight to the Aktion T4-inspired camps.
me_valentijn@ai6yr
Are they free, and do they come with a baseball bat? 🤔
(As a wheelchair user when I'm able to leave the house: no fucking way.)
Lenora
locus@ai6yr i think the word this qualifies under is #technoableism ---
https://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/against-technoableism-excerpt/
https://www.sciencefriday.com/articles/against-technoableism-excerpt/
AprazethAs someone whom had to support and push their own wheelchair bound mom around (my early/pre-puberty, so pre 2000) I think I am somewhat familiar with how things work and don't.
This? This is shit. What is needed is accessibility applied to places so fancy, expensive, and often fragile, proprietary tech isn't needed.
It is creating yet another dependence on external factors.
Are there cases where this tech might help? Maybe. But let us focus on making places accessible firstly.
Ask the community what they want and need rather then what some souped up washed out coked up techbro has sharted out.
Money and attention that could really help people is now being funneled into some hustle project that will benefit few to none other then th
But nooooo let's not attempt to fix society in a meaningful way when we can extract more money and inflict indignity upon others.
... Yes, this pissed me off.
I have had to help my mom in situations that were beyond appalling. Having to run inside to the front desk to get the keys for the wheelchair elevator while she had to wait in the soaking rain. Doors that can't be operated from a wheelchair, curbs, thresholds, single accessibility toilet at the other end of the building...
But yes, let's create a fancy new gizmo that drives on it's own and creates a dependence on the manufacturer and whether or not they support it in the future. Because if it breaks, what then?
If they want to do something; make electric wheel chairs affordable, safer, repairable, and maintainable. But there is not enough money to be made there, so... Guess which option they'll pick.
OK, I will stop but ooh I am seething right now.
@Aprazeth I appreciate your experience and thoughts here, I wish more of the technology developers would consider these things!
Phil Stevens 
Agree with all, par the logging of defects using a website.
Talk to them. You know, like they are people. Because they are. Not users, people.
Shakedown tests and users terminology makes it sound like an app. It isn't. This is about life, and living. Being part of society, and being able to do so without having to rely on the benevolence of others.
Because this isn't about technology.
It is about dignity.
@Aprazeth @ai6yr It would only be viable if it was an actual job, with decent pay, for someone who wanted to do it.
Our council has something like this where people can upload a geolocated photo of a problem and have it forwarded to the relevant department. It gets a lot of tripping hazards and overgrown vegetation blocking footpath access. The obvious enhancement to this would be paying someone to traverse a given area and note all the issues, because even if it was designed properly you still have to do maintenance and deal with extrinsic events.
@phil_stevens @Aprazeth Alas, cities here in California have started to pay robotics/AI companies to "map" sidewalks for hazards.
@phil_stevens @Aprazeth I absolutely agree. I wonder if these folks even have any folks who would be users working at the company.
City of Irvine: "Robots Help Map Accessibility in Irvine"
https://cityofirvine.org/news-media/news-article/robots-help-map-accessibility-irvine
Let me guess, after it is all mapped, they will be out of budget so they can't fix anything.
... Sigh. I wish I was wrong about this.
Ah true. And to that I say: streetsweepers. They roam around anyway, and can report/fix as needed.
In the Netherlands we actually have such a system (some municipalities at least) Take a pic and upload it to the municipality website, and they fix it. Ranges from trash, broken tiles/pavement, light posts etc. I have reported stuff for tripping hazards and usually 2 or 3 weeks later it is fixed (I do live in a smaller city, well village really )
KristinJI love this idea for the batteries!
Standardized equipment with mandated interoperability, with open design specs.
I hope so as well. It has been many years since, things have improved in general in terms of accessibility. And yet, so so much still needs to be done.
Apologies for the rant. It is something I genuinely feel very deeply on a personal level (as you can tell) Thanks for hearing me out 🩵
Econproph@Aprazeth @ai6yr
No apologies needed, Aprazeth! Rather, I thank you 💙 for it. Amen!
I would add in solidarity, not in criticism, that there are multiple disabilities and accessibility needs. I too am tired of some tech bro thinking if some magic AI driven wheelchair exists or some flying drone, then accessibility is solved. Besides the mobility issues you cited, others exist. I'm visually impaired. Those drones & AI will ensure I trip, fall down a step/ uneven floor and get a concussion.
🩵 absolutely agree
Thank you for sharing and expanding upon this! There are indeed so so many more needs that can and should be addressed!
rand ❌👑@Aprazeth @ai6yr I was waiting at a light yesterday (on my bike) and watched as a woman on a scooter had to navigate around the curb cutout to get to the beg button. Then she had to reverse course so that she could use the curb cutout to cross the street. And I complain that I can’t get to the buttons from my bike on the street without getting onto the sidewalk. Our accommodations, when they exist are messed up.
Absolutely. That is the thing; proper bicycle/pedestrian infrastructure will benefit everyone.
Equalized crossings (as in, no curb) are easier for everyone; wheelchair, strollers, people using canes etc.
The curb cutting effect, as I believe it is called.
Next time someone is advocating for pedestrian or bicycle infrastructure, mention that it benefits people in wheelchairs, and/or mobility scooters as well.
Might just wake some politicians up to these plights.
I distinctly remember pushing my mom in a wheelchair in the bicycle lane because of that exact reason: curbs at the traffic lights. Recent adjustments in the Netherlands now usually mean equalized crossings, and as maintenance or new roads are built, this gets put into place.
Politicians tend to complain about cost, and that's the thing. As soon as maintenance is being done on a road or crossing, install it at that point. Negates a LOT of the so called costs or impact.
Once you know about these things and become aware of them - you'll notice them everywhere.
People noticing and sharing their experiences and observations is a good thing. Awareness leads to action, hopefully.
So, thank you 🩵
... Sorry for the longer reply (this is something I feel very deeply about as very evident by now. Sorry again)
@Aprazeth @ai6yr No apology needed! Thank you for your insights.
One thing about curb cuts around here (SF Bay Area), is the inconsistency of where they are added in relation to direction of travel. The example I saw yesterday was a single curb cut at the apex of the corner.
So assuming an expected direction of travel, e.g. a continuous line from one sidewalk across the street to the side walk on the other side. The curb cut is not in that line. You fallow the sidewalk, arrive at the corner, make a 45 degree turn to enter the street, turn back to the sidewalk, cross the street and repeat the process to get back on the sidewalk. Some corners have two cuts, perhaps in line with the sidewalk, but then the crosswalk is ½ in line, it is often set back away from the intersection. This is confusing to pedestrians who don't have to deal with a disability. I'm sure there is a reason for this meandering across the street, but it drives me nuts.
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@Aprazeth @ai6yr And in this case, the woman had to go left at the corner to reach the signal pole that had the button on it. And then back up to access the curb cut that was angled to the right. While much better than finding a driveway somewhere down the street, it is still not ideal. I think that designers of this infrastructure should have to navigate them in person. But they are just being added to comply with laws, not for actually helping people.
Oh and sometimes the added curb cuts have to work around a storm drain that was placed right where you might want to add the cut.
Observing these things is something I have been doing since my first "real" job working for a woman who had to get around in a motorized chair. Going a few blocks to lunch was often an eye opener.
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Morgan ⚧️@Aprazeth @ai6yr as a(n ambulatory) wheelchair user myself, I agree wholeheartedly. Tech like this is designed for one thing: gatekeeping accessibility for the rich. There's no way in hell I'll ever be able to afford something like this, especially because in the meantime, my work opportunities are limited by inaccessible infrastructure!
Anarchist Trans Ace Pirate
@coolcalmcollected Great sign!
I saw it on Tumblr too many years ago and it's become my core ideology