If the original Mac had used icons in menus from the start, nobody in their right mind would be calling for their removal today.
That's how you know that argument doesn't reflect reality. All major platforms now have icons in menus; you can't wind back the clock on that one, you're just obstinately refusing to follow the system standards and user expectation.
So much ink and many podcast hours have been wasted discussing the wrong parts of the issues with Liquid Glass on the Mac
@stroughtonsmith It's one of the *many* issues with the design trends.
Icons become pure visual noise. And they are wildly inconsistent between apps even in the same app suite by the same company. And you can't always find a good icon metaphor to fit into a 16x16 box.
It's not just an Apple issue. It's the industry issue
@dmitriid @stroughtonsmith not to mention when different developers use different icons for similarly/same menu items across apps. Or how you can’t even make out what they are on non-retina displays.
(Almost all offices don’t offer their employees Studio Displays).
@marioguzman @dmitriid none of this is an excuse not to do them, though — all of these things are bugs that they've chosen to ship, not an existential flaw. We need more highly-specific icons. We need more standardized icons. We need better lowdpi support.
The answer as to why now? Because iOS already does it, and macOS is aligning with iOS, as it has been for decades. macOS is aligning with iOS because users expect it, developers are building for it, and it ties into touchscreen support
@stroughtonsmith @dmitriid ah so it’s about uniformity/consistency across platforms.
I hate to say but that’s still not a good enough reason to me. This consistency is what got us into this lowest common denominator mess in the first place and why some Mac apps just feel like iPad apps.
@stroughtonsmith @marioguzman @dmitriid
Strong NO.
macOS is different for very good reasons, and all tries to merge them, both in function and design, have failed spectacularly, as we have seen with "Broken Glass" and the countless new bugs in the unified "UIKit" on macOS.
I want people at Apple who understand that difference, and don't force miserably failed UI ideas from iOS to the Mac.
@stroughtonsmith @marioguzman @dmitriid
You should really talk to some Mac users and what they think about "Broken Glass" and the amount of bugs creeping up. Doing support for my Mac applications, I have yet to find a single user liking the new interface style, and the constant crashes in macOS...
@marioguzman @stroughtonsmith @dmitriid
Sure, that seems indeed to be the case. Cook never understood anything about software or user interfaces, he only reads the $$$$, and that is enough for him.. Sigh.
@stroughtonsmith @marioguzman @cdfinder
Apple's new software design chief, Steve Lemay, was "a driving force" behind Liquid Glass and was "deeply involved in its development."
https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/15/ios-27-macos-27-no-major-liquid-glass-changes/
@stroughtonsmith @cdfinder @marioguzman
Windows has never been more successful until the amount of shitty decisions outweighed success and user loyalty.
Already now the only reason Apple boasts great adoption numbers for Tahoe and iOS 17 is because it literally tricks users into upgrading. Oh, and their hardware is amazing.
@stroughtonsmith @marioguzman @dmitriid > macOS is aligning with iOS because users expect it
No. Mac OS has been aligning with iOS as part of a strategy that suited Apple. Apple started it, Apple said ‘it’s what the users want’.
During those years when Mac OS and iOS were more distinctive, I was still doing tech support, and not one client told me, “Man, this Mac OS is so hard to use… I wish it was more like my phone.” People became more confused when Mac OS started (badly) aping iOS.
> macOS is aligning with iOS because users expect it,
They... don't
> developers are building for it,
Because Apple fully prioritizes iOS only, tells devs to ship shitty half-assed ports on MacOS, and ships half-assed apps itself, and generally deprioritizes MacOS
> and it ties into touchscreen support
There's no way of making proper touch screen support for an OS running on large screens and using high-precision pointing devices without killing it
BTW here are some criticisms for the existing OS https://blog.apotenza.com/the-neo-cannot-scale-with-macos-behind-on-the-basics
They will never matter for modern Apple because they view everything as one big iPhone.
@stroughtonsmith that is a big if: there was a lot of cognitive research that went into the Lisa and original Mac GUI’s, and even A/B testing with actual users that were seeing a Mac, and sometimes a computer, for the first time. It just shows two competing focus points, when before there was one.
No platform was using those icons 5 years ago. They can disappear in the same timeframe if Apple decides not to follow through.
But as long as it is a system standard, it’s probably better to implement it… but it adds to the cost of creating an app for very little benefit to the users, other than not breaking with convention.
All user research or any research at all died sometime in the 00s. All design today is purely vibes and changes for the sake of changes.
Even *Microsoft* (never a paragon of good design) had *extensive* research in the 1990s-2000s. See "The Why of Office UI" https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/tags/Why+the+New+UI_3F00_/default.aspx or the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiNeUTgGkk
@stroughtonsmith But most operating systems don't have *tons of icons*, they have *some icons*.
I always thought Mac ought have icons, but I think they botched the execution on this one. But making it work well probably won't be a big change, so I'm hopeful on that one.
Also actual research says that in general, icons in menus like this are a bad thing. The very reason they were NOT used were based on these studies. That whole argument is moot.
1. What does iOS have to do with it?
2. What @nikitonsky said applies to iOS as well
3. On top of that Apple keeps hiding meaningful information behind meanigless inconsitent icons across apps and utilities
@dmitriid @nikitonsky iOS is Apple's bigger, more-successful OS, and is also (on iPad) used with keyboard and mouse, which has had menu icons for several years. The point is where are all the calls to remove its menu icons?
It's all well and good saying now that you would have campaigned against icons in menus had they been here since the start, but nobody has brought up that claim against Apple's other OSes, and they've been here for years. I just don't believe it ex post facto
iPad has for years been basically a one-window device on with a small screen, used mostly for consumption, with very limited mouse and keyboard support added as an afterthought.
Since iPad has fewer users of actual complex and desktop software, there were no calls for that. Oh, don't forget that for years, again, iPad was viewed as basically abandoned with many complaints that Apple doesn't do anything to do iPad OS a better system.
"Other Apple OSes" are iOS which doesn't have menus, iPad OS which has been the bastard child with little non-consumption use, tvOS which is basically abandonware and doesn't have menus.
And MacOS which... you somehow assume MUST absolutely become iOS because?
Ah yes. Everything that I longpress spawns a 4-item menu that is a) equivalent to menus on MacOS and b) must serve as a model for MacOS because reasons.
@grishka has already answered about "investment"
@stroughtonsmith @nikitonsky @grishka
Here's a menu that pops up in Ivory when I long press a user name.
Which part of this menu can serve as an example for MacOS?
- Not fitting the screen?
- Icons on the right?
- Multiple nested expandable groups?
- Icons that make no sense ("open link to profile") but have to be there just because?
@stroughtonsmith @nikitonsky @grishka
Compare. Standard iOS longpress menus in Ivory vs. desktop-like custom menus in Fastmail.
Somehow desktop-like menus have no problems with clarity, grouping, icons etc.
They are not everywhere. All apps on iOS are designed to avoid menus as much as possible.
You discover any long presses and those by accident and usually dismiss them.
I think the only menu-like object anyone encounters with any frequency is the text options (select, paste, lookup).
Oh. When you want to edit the home screen you are now presented with a menu first because apps can populate it. The order of the menu depends on icon position lol.
I've been an iPhone user since iPhone 3GS I think. I've never once concsiously used any of the long press menus anywhere. Except by pure accident.
Oh. I remember one I actually use regularly. The annoying finicky "copy image" in Safari.
@gklka @stroughtonsmith @nikitonsky
I could challenge to list all the multitude of popup/context/long press menus you constantly use in the apps you use on a daily basis.
I did find four I use regularly. Two in Safari, one text selection, one screenshot tool.
This returns back to the question of why these short one-off random menus are now assumed to be *the* model for MacOS menus?
@gklka @stroughtonsmith @nikitonsky
There are a few more that I sometimes randomly run into (I don't use Messages that much), but look at how amazing this menu is and what happens when I click "More...".
Truly something to bring wholesale to MacOS
@gklka @stroughtonsmith @nikitonsky
And here's what happens when you say "well, iOS is the more popular system, we need consistency whereby we just blindly copy iOS interaction patterns": "Why macOS Ventura Share menu is bad" https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/VenturaShare.html
We went from "you're not using iOS enough" to "oh, you're not using latest iOS with all the great and amazing design decisions".
Note how you actively avoid the "why are short one-off menus on a device with a tiny touch screen are defined as unquestionable *the* model for MacOS"?
You could show the same menus I showed and other "menus" are everywhere to dispel my scepticism, by the way. Perhaps even the same menus I showed.
Thank you for the screenshots!!
So.... It's all the same context menus that have always been there, just more oval, and more padding?
As I've seen all, or most, of them at one time or another. Cant't say I use them (I now remember I always curse the Files app and Files menu on the rare occasions I end up there)
(I mean, they moved all icons to the left, made all menu items require icons, and made everything as oval as possible. Why is this assumed an undeiably unquestionably good thing, and anyone who challenges the assumption is met with undeserved hostility and "but iOS is so popular"? I mean, with so many failures of the redesign, *this* is the one area that received the utmost care, attention to detail and research?)
I literally use iOS without the vast majority of them.
Honestly, I didn't even know you could long press Notes, for example. And Notes is my life :)
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