Nina KalininaThere was a brief period of time when upgrade modules for computers looked like upgrade modules for computers.
Space Hobo@nina_kali_nina We all just wanted Sony cyberdeck aesthetics without the Sony made-up-a-proprietary-lock-in-and-nobody-cared formats and protocols.
Kevin Karhan 
@spacehobo @nina_kali_nina Gilfoyle Voice "Kinda like that one?"
points at #VAIO #P11Z
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Vaio_P11Z
@kkarhan @nina_kali_nina https://www.msx.org/wiki/Sony_HB-10 ← This was more what I was going for, or maybe the HB-F1...
@kkarhan @nina_kali_nina Heck, even the standard 3½" diskette or the minidisc are design classics compared to what we all ended up with.
@spacehobo @nina_kali_nina I still think the 3,5" FDD has the supreme handling of any removeable media, which is why I advocate to copy it's design for hot-swappable SSDs
- Simply because it's just a superior design!
Tho granted if it were to help I'd accept increasing THICC-ness from 3,3mm to 5mm since that could increase mechanical stiffness and prevent idiots.from shoving it into a real 3,5" FDD drive…
- Certainly it's better than USB flashdrives and (often precariously dangling) external SSDs.
The genius engineering of the 3½ inch floppy disk
Krutonium://@kkarhan @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina https://github.com/KBtechnologies/NeoFloppy/blob/main/documentation/neofloppy.specification.md
For the record, the Helium isn't used for cooling, it's used because it's physically smaller than the atoms used in the makeup of air, and that's required due to how close the heads are to the platters.
@krutonium @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina To be precise, Helium is an excellent thermal contuctor and has way less friction compared to air or plain nitrogen, and high-capacity drives have both problems with the platters getting hot at their packaging density and having to transfer that heat away.
- Helium does solve these issues and is still (too!) cheap.
If it was mere atom size, the use of Hydrogen would be even better but like Helium that too leaks very well through tanks and enclosed metal containers and on top of that can quickly form explosive atmospheres, so it wasn't an option.
- Other gases either have the opposite properties (i.e. SF6 is an excellent insulator) or introduce other issues on top of that and are generally worse for the job.
Liquid-filled HDDs were abandoned for similar reasons on top of the incompatibility with existing drive heads.
Savely@spacehobo @krutonium @nina_kali_nina @kkarhan, helium beats even hydrogen on particle size, because hydrogen bundles up into molecules which are bigger than singular helium atoms.
@volemo @spacehobo @krutonium @nina_kali_nina point taken!
Air and espechally nitrogen being a good insulator and the effects of both laminar and turbulent flow forces acting on the heads due to the spacial density and the heat concentration make it necessary to use some sort of coolant/thermal conductor with negligible resistance. Most liquid coolants would have way too much force so unless extremely slow access and transfer speeds (i.e. a 600rpm instead of 5400rpm drive) were to be accepted.
- Personally I think that #SMR & #Helium drives are a bad direction given the unpreticably worsening performance and "write amplification" with (SMR) and the wasteful use of a valuable element needed for nore important tasks (Helium).
Instead, the use and development of #Flash and #NVRAM, espechally #FeRAM and #NvSRAM should be prioritized.
@kkarhan @volemo @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina But has tape though? Sure we might not be able to increase data density per inch of tape any more (though I bet we could), the density of data per reel is incredibly easy to continue expanding, since more tape makes the roll expand slower over time.
@krutonium @[email protected] @volemo @spacehobo there's new LTO release every few years, with more and more data per inch. Yes, on paper both LTO-9 and LTO-10 are "545 kbit/inch", but that's per track; the tape width is the same, but LTO-10 packs 15104 tracks while LTO-9 only had "only" 8960 tracks. These numbers are so mind-boggling, really: LTO-10 holds 1 GB of data per 1 inch of a half-an-inch tape.
Attie Grande@nina_kali_nina
> LTO-10 packs 15104 tracks
... woah, thanks for dropping that one into my consciousness! 😱
I've always loved tape, but never been very hands on with it... 😢
fgaz@kkarhan
When this topic comes up I like to bring up CFExpress type C. It's 54×74×4.8mm, it's an open standard, and the interface is just PCIe with a more robust connector.
@spacehobo @nina_kali_nina
When this topic comes up I like to bring up CFExpress type C. It's 54×74×4.8mm, it's an open standard, and the interface is just PCIe with a more robust connector.
@spacehobo @nina_kali_nina
@fgaz @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo granted I am aware of CFexpress and whilst #PCIe / #NVMe provides excellent performance, I'm confident it would be best to offer a "Quad-Mode" storage solution that offers #USB, #SD, #SATA & #PCIe to serve all the needs from low-power SBCs to bootable drives to high-performance storage.
- Not to mention the benefits of a bigger surface area medium with space for labelling, NFC/RFID tags (similar to MAM on Tapes) and barcode at the rear for ease of media identification as well as automated media handling in Autoloaders and espechally given the shortcomings of #Tape and #HDD|s that are way less capable to expand with growing needs, as speed doesn't increase with capacity...
The idea is closer to making a universal yet affordable standard for removeable media.
@fgaz @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo The big advantage in this regard is that unlike #FDD, #LTOultrium or other #Tape and #OpticalMedia like #ArchivalDisc¹ and #OpticalDiscArchive ² it needs to have the flexibility to transparently grow in capacity beyond standardized, fixed sizes in a longterm-compatible manner.
@fgaz @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo whilst we can all agree that #Flash is yet to come down in #pricing for #BulkStorage to compete with #HDD or even #Tape, it's pretty certain that #BDXL¹ as storage medium doesn't have sufficient capacity and that #SSD|s can and will get cheaper, bigger and faster at way faster speeds #HDDs and #Tapes can because these older media are already at the technological "bleeding edge" when it comes to reliability.
- OFC a 3-dimensional [see VMD} or "5-dimensional" storage will obviously be even more dense, but they'll likely not achieve the necessary low price, high speed, and portability to work unless we suddenly make some serious technology jumps.
Eckes 
@eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina Except both formats struggle with cooling at high loads in high performance applications and are quite flimsy and fragile!
@kkarhan @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina yeah i guess if you need that, then it’s E.3-S or other sizes from EDSFF (or U.2/3 for older, there are some without caddy)
@eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina They do work great for servers, but only doing PCIe makes them quite expensive to support.
- Which is why I wish for SD, USB, SATA & PCIe as interfaces, given that:
- SD works with any SBC and many embedded devices as boot drive,
- SATA does the same for Desktop,
- USB is trading convenience and compatibility for that and
- PCIe is focussed on speed.
Kevin Karhan :verified: (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] granted I am aware of [CFexpress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFexpress#Form_factors) and whilst #PCIe / #NVMe provides excellent performance, I'm confident it would be best to offer a [*"Quad-Mode"* storage solution](https://github.com/KBtechnologies/NeoFloppy/blob/main/documentation/neofloppy.specification.md#pinout) that offers #USB, #SD, #SATA & #PCIe to serve all the needs from low-power SBCs to bootable drives to high-performance storage. - Not to mention the benefits of a [bigger surface area](https://github.com/KBtechnologies/NeoFloppy/blob/main/documentation/neofloppy.specification.md#mechanical-dimensions) medium with space for labelling, NFC/RFID tags (similar to [MAM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Auxiliary_Memory) on Tapes) and barcode at the rear for ease of [media identification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open#Labels) as well as automated media handling in [Autoloaders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape_library#Autoloaders) and espechally given the shortcomings of #Tape and #HDD|s that are way less capable to expand with growing needs, as [speed doesn't increase with capacity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open#Tape_specifications)... The idea is closer to making a universal yet affordable standard for removeable media.
@kkarhan @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina u.3 Supports Sata and sas as well, but since you care for performance I guess NVMe or CXL will be better
@eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina granted CXL will likely never come to Consumer Devices and PCIe whilst being fast will really make things expensive.
- Obviously the drives would more or less transparently choose the best interface based off the available connectivity support of the media and host (with the option to hard-set them)…
@kkarhan @eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina
AMD has talked about bringing CXL to Consumer platforms for a while, and there are a couple of TRX50 boards that unofficially support it today. Still HEDT but not far from consumer.
@krutonium @eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina granted I don't consider #Threadripper a "consumer platform" but rather #Enterprise / #Enthusiast / #Workstation-grade.
- Just because someone is willing to sell to me as a consumer doesn't mean that's cinsumer grade...
Still, #CXL's ability to offer basically "#SlowRAM" expansion is nifty and will make #Database applications and #caching significantly faster whilst reducing wear on regular #SSD|s in high-#IOPS scenarios...
@kkarhan @eckes @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina Even if it is "slow" ram, it's still faster than older standards like DDR2/3 - Honestly most scenarios don't need more.
My big want for CXL Ram on a Card would be to attach an 18650 to it and use it as my root filesystem/boot drive.
(And this is just steps to get it closer to consumer viable)
AMS@AMS @spacehobo @nina_kali_nina les just say that CFexpress is quite smol and not really designed for a lot of handling...
Kevin Karhan :verified: (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] They do work great for servers, but only doing PCIe makes them quite expensive to support. - Which is why I wish for SD, USB, SATA & PCIe as interfaces, given that: - SD works with any SBC and many embedded devices as boot drive, - SATA does the same for Desktop, - USB is trading convenience and compatibility for that and - PCIe is focussed on speed. https://infosec.space/@kkarhan/115284064808107600
hyratel@spacehobo @[email protected] minidisc are so pretty 🥲 we still use them at home
@nina_kali_nina 💽 ← At least they have their own unicode codepoint!
@spacehobo @nina_kali_nina also #MiniDisc do take the best from 3,5" FDD, Mini-CD and MOdisc to recombime then into a really good portable media format.
- Where #Siny not.constantly hamfisting stuff, it would be even more awesome.
Like if it used #BDXL tech and supoorted #FLAC as well as mixed mode (audio + data) use...
vxo@nina_kali_nina @spacehobo MD was just such a charmingly futuristic UX in general. Tiny disc, tiny player/recorders, support for metadata, it was glorious
Michael Dwyer@vxo @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo The music industry stole this future from us. I recall quietly begging the market for something to replace the floppy disk. I remember searching for MD data drives. I briefly tested floptical. But it really wasn't until flash thumb drives that anything actually arrived. (I'm conveniently forgetting CD+R and DVD?R? because that experience sucked.)
Oh. I forgot about Zip disks. Those were almost there.
Raven667@mdwyer @vxo @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo I had an LS-120 drive and a handful of disks, they were better than zip but just too late
@mdwyer @vxo @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo and now you know why I want a Removeable yet bootable SSD format…
Kevin Karhan :verified: (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] I still think the 3,5" FDD has the supreme handling of any removeable media, which is why I advocate to [copy it's design for hot-swappable SSDs](https://github.com/KBtechnologies/NeoFloppy) - Simply because it's just a superior design! Tho granted if it were to help I'd accept increasing *THICC-ness* from 3,3mm to 5mm since that could increase mechanical stiffness and prevent idiots.from shoving it into a real 3,5" FDD drive… - Certainly it's [better](https://github.com/KBtechnologies/NeoFloppy/blob/main/documentation/neofloppy.specification.md) than USB flashdrives and (often precariously dangling) external SSDs.
@kkarhan
Would some kind of swappable cartridge NVME fit the bill?
While it could be shaped like a floppy, a MD, or a Nintendo cartridge, I'm proposing they be modeled after friend shaped tape media like DVCAM. MiniDV is cute too but look at the mini THICCUM and the CHONKERONI and CHEESE
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DV_tape_sizes_2.jpg
@kkarhan
wait that should be THICCARONI and CHEESE, and CHONKSTER. The sound that comes out of the deck when it high speed rewinds is fearsome, almost seismic, like the sound of someone power drilling into the opposite side of a wall. I love it. They get away with it because the decks that do that have very smooth and gentle speed regulation on direct drive reel motors that handle the thin tape with the care needed to avoid Magnetic Fettuccine of Heartbreak
@mdwyer @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo
wait that should be THICCARONI and CHEESE, and CHONKSTER. The sound that comes out of the deck when it high speed rewinds is fearsome, almost seismic, like the sound of someone power drilling into the opposite side of a wall. I love it. They get away with it because the decks that do that have very smooth and gentle speed regulation on direct drive reel motors that handle the thin tape with the care needed to avoid Magnetic Fettuccine of Heartbreak
@mdwyer @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo
Aaron@vxo @nina_kali_nina @spacehobo ... can record high quality digital audio IN THE FIELD without any type of computer, a big deal in the 90's!
( I don't think my player works anymore but I still have my MDs. )
( I don't think my player works anymore but I still have my MDs. )