Matthew EdneyJul 21
Yoïn van Spijk

The word 'ye' in names such as Ye Olde Inn ('the old inn') was originally simply pronounced 'the'.

The pronunciation with y is due to a misinterpretation of the first letter.

'Ye' originated as a second-best way of writing 'þe'. The first letter, þ, was called thorn. It was a letter for the th sound that originated in Old English.

Where did þ come from? How did it disappear? And why was it substituted by y in the word 'ye'?

Click my new infographic to read all about it:

Jul 20 at 7:14pmWeb
Show threadIan K. Rogers ikr?╭ರ_ಠJul 20

@yvanspijk English should adopt eth

Ð ð

Show threadMagnus AhltorpJul 20
@ianrogers @yvanspijk You can start using ðat letter anytime you like, I Þink.
Show threadIan K. Rogers ikr?╭ರ_ಠJul 21
@ahltorp @yvanspijk I'd rather not get into beginning and ending characters,... with both characters would the Egyptian god be Þoð or Ðoð?
Show threadDwight Williams (💉 x9)+😷🇨🇦Jul 21
@ianrogers @ahltorp @yvanspijk Easier to spell with fewer glyphs.
Show threadRightSprung will not complyJul 20

@yvanspijk

I love this.

Show threadoldfartjmb says FREE PALESTINEJul 20

@yvanspijk

That is just wonderful! I learned. I learned something about my own language that I never would have guessed.

Thank you for sharing this with us!

Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 20
@johnb48 Thank you for your kind words!
Show threadColm DonoghueJul 20
@yvanspijk is Thou/You
Thee/ye(second person plural)
Related to this?
Show threadAaronJul 20
@ColmDonoghue @yvanspijk This is something I've wondered, too. It seems like it would have to be different, since I think the words were used back before literacy was common.
Show threadgeoff martinJul 21
@hosford42 @ColmDonoghue @yvanspijk I’m from Newfoundland, where some of us still use ‘ye’ as the plural of ‘you’. After a couple of pints, meeting friends in a bar, it would not be strange for me to ask ‘what’re ye at t’night?’
Show threadAaronJul 22
@ggmartin @ColmDonoghue @yvanspijk That is really cool! I didn't know it was still used at all anymore
Show threadgeoff martinJul 22

@hosford42 @ColmDonoghue @yvanspijk Yup... it's pretty normal at home, but we have lots of words that are probably 400-year old remnants of the original crowd that showed up from England.

However, this thread has made me wonder whether what I'm really saying is a variant of "thee", which I've never considered.

While I'm at it:
In Newfoundland, we have a dessert called "figgy duff", and I have LONG wondered whether the "duff" is an old pronunciation of "dough", since it rhymes with "tough"...

Show threadColm DonoghueJul 22

@ggmartin @hosford42 @yvanspijk

I've heard people from St Johns speaking and it's almost indistinguishable from a Waterford accent here in Ireland

Would the desert be dark coloured? Duff is similar to dubh, the Irish word for black/dark

Show threadgeoff martinJul 22

@ColmDonoghue It's not unusual for me to be asked if I'm originally from Ireland (I grew up just outside St. John's - but now I live in Denmark... My accent when I'm trying to speak Danish is ... atypical...

As for figgy duff, the image I have in my head from my childhood is similar to a dark Christmas cake. But a quick online search just turned up some light ones looking more like spotted dick. Interesting to learn about dubh! Thanks for that!

Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 20
@ColmDonoghue The second person plural 'ye', with its object form 'you', which later supplanted 'ye', is unrelated. This 'ye' comes from Old English 'ġē', which is related to Dutch 'jij' (you). 'Thou' and 'thee' come from Old English 'þū' and 'þē', the singular subject and object forms.
Show threadDerPumu (he/him)Jul 21
@yvanspijk @ColmDonoghue does that mean the singular "thou" was replaced with its plural form "you"?
Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 21
@DerPumu @ColmDonoghue Exactly! 'You' first became a polite singular form, while 'thou' became impolite. Eventually, 'you' supplanted 'thou'.
Show threadWillJul 20
@yvanspijk
I love yis kind of stuff.
Show threadRon JeffriesJul 20
@yvanspijk @marcevers
Thanks! I knew the basics but not that whole flow. Interesting!
Show threadMichael KnudsenJul 20
@yvanspijk noticed a sign on my holiday to the Netherlands which said "voet pad", and this must be a different case of pað/path.
Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 20
@mk Indeed, 'pad' is the Dutch cognate of 'path'. The Old Dutch th sound became d during the 11th century.
Show threadNazoJul 20
@yvanspijk Mastodon rules.
Show threadlp0 on fire Jul 20

@yvanspijk, very much like ‘ȝ’ → ‘z’, as in the names Menzies and Dalziel.

I was taught to write ‘z’ (cursive) in a way which looks very like ‘ȝ’ (or ‘𝔷’). I wonder if this is related…

Show threadAdam OnzaJul 20
@yvanspijk I use thorn in my personal writing system. As well as some other runic letters, in imitation of old English.🕶️
Show threadcuan_knaggsJul 21
@AdamOnza @yvanspijk have you come across the shaw alphabet yet, https://shavian.info/
Shavian alphabet info | 𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯 𐑨𐑤𐑓𐑩𐑚𐑧𐑑 𐑦𐑯𐑓𐑴

Show threadAdam OnzaJul 21
@mensrea @yvanspijk Accounts of it inspired my system, I think. :) When I found the actual script, I used it for some notes.There is so much info on it now!
Show threadThe TurtleJul 20
@yvanspijk I demand we return to using thorn, and also that old punctuation mark "ow-fuck-is-that-a-cholla-cactus."
Show threadLa Dame d'AzurJul 21
@yvanspijk It always irked me that certain sounds in English had to be represented with two letters because we stopped using the single letters meant to represent those sounds. It struck me as being less efficient, though I can understand how þ and p getting confused would contribute to one being dropped, though I think that's more of a fault with the Latin script being ill-suited for a Germanic language.
Show threadMarenJul 21
@yvanspijk I technically know that but to give the right mental image, I’ve gotta say “Ye Oldie” …
Show threadgentlegardenerJul 21
@yvanspijk beautiful! What a delight!
Show threadScott Leggett  Jul 21
@yvanspijk This is such an interesting explanation of something I've never given much thought to. Thank you!
Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 21
@smlx Thank you very much!
Show threadPeterJul 21

@yvanspijk

#LegitimatelyInteresting

Show threadLuke DornyJul 21
@yvanspijk thank you, Yoïn! Do you have an article explaining this that we can link to? 🙌
Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 21
@Luke I'm afraid I don't: I collected the information from several books and articles. My post is also on Tumblr, though, with this link: https://www.tumblr.com/yvanspijk/789618155231281152/ye-olde-misinterpretation
Post by @yvanspijk · 1 image

💬 0  🔁 25  ❤️ 58 · Ye olde misinterpretation · The word ye in names such as Ye Olde Inn (meaning 'the old inn') was originally simply pronounced the. The pronunciation with y is due to a misinterpr…

Tumblr
Show threadDerPumu (he/him)Jul 21
@yvanspijk I learned something interesting today. Thank you!
Show threadTommy ÞJul 21
@yvanspijk I have a vested interest in this. As an aside, it was surprising to me how much I could read of Icelandic. I speculate without evidence that it's closer to Old Danish than danish is today.
Show threadArne BleijsJul 21

@yvanspijk Interesting. Thnx. Movable type printing has certainly impoverished writing language.

One other point: I recently read about some elder futhark runes possibly being based on Nabatean script, due to exchange with Arab soldiers in the Roman military base in Straubing.

So 'þ' could have been derived from Nabatean 'ṭēt', according to that theory, because Roman writing did not have a symbol for it.

Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 21
@ableijs Ah, interesting! Many runes' origins are shrouded in darkness. Dr. Jackson Crawford on YouTube has some excellent videos on the theories., but I don't remember if he considers the Nabatean theory viable.
Show threadArne BleijsJul 21
@yvanspijk Thnx. I will look them up.
Show threadDźwiedziuJul 21

@yvanspijk
Thorn þorn

…I'll show myself out…

Show threadLoy HenaJul 21
@yvanspijk
@KeroQueen
Show threadStill OrchardJul 22

@loyhena @yvanspijk

Show threadcaskfanJul 21
@yvanspijk I always understood it predated printing and was beacuse scribes in a hurry wouldn't form the bow correctly and hence the 'Þ' started to look like a 'y'
Show threadYoïn van SpijkJul 21
@caskfan I'm afraid that's a myth. It's not what the data show, and if being in a hurry had been a consistent factor for centuries, other letters with a bow would also have been affected.
Show threadSTPJul 21

@yvanspijk I would very much like to bring back the thorn.. we have a lot of 'th' words and it's a unique enough sound to deserve it's own letter. I guess we'll all need new keyboards, or just replace '#'.. I hardly ever comment my code anyway ;-)

'Overmorrow' (day after tomorrow) needs to be resurrected.

Show threadCurmudgeonJul 21

@yvanspijk

One thing I like about Macintosh computers is that you can hold down the T key and hit 3 to write þ.

Similar options for æ, ð, œ [a. d, o], and most accented letters. No wynn though.

I think that the letter þ dropped out with the advent of movable type printing, since type was imported by Caxton from the Dutch Republic.

[edit: Just realized you had this in part 6 of your infographic.]

Show threadCurmudgeonJul 21

@yvanspijk

There wasn't a decent type foundry in England until Caslon, nearly 300 years later.

Show threadWahyaJul 22
@yvanspijk Thank you! Language history is so interesting! <3
Show threadLaurens 🐐Jul 22
@yvanspijk Nobody commented on the pronunciation of your first name as 'Thoïn' yet. Sounds a bit Dwarfish, if you ask me.
Show thread Janneke 🍋 Jul 22
@ElBeeToots @yvanspijk