Mastodawn

biscuit 🏴Jul 6

@nixCraft just pain and rage. i feel it

meka Jul 6

@nixCraft non-coder finding out how coders feel all the time 😃

Simx72 Jul 9

@meka @nixCraft with ai

without ai, you fix it like in 1 week, may be 2, or 3. not 1 month xd

Matthew Malthouse Jul 6

@nixCraft

Hunting down all those bugs might actually have taught them something useful about coding.

But instead of using that…

sheislaurence Jul 6

@calmeilles @nixCraft exactly! After that rant i had expected something along the lines of "hats off to actual developers" but no, clearly they wasted their time but also ours and learnt nothing!

Shannon Quinn

@nixCraft This is my shocked face

Lazarou Monkey Terror 🚀💙🌈Jul 6

@nixCraft this has "All My Apes Gone" energy about it, it's beautiful.

Alex Jul 6

@nixCraft now imagine the pain before ai... lol

Jul 10

@alex02 you mean the time when people knew what they were doing? that was easier

Alex Jul 10

@zy people knew what they were doing?

Jul 10

@alex02 people that use chatgpt to code don't know what they are writing. it's hard to understand how something work but it's still way harder to fixing things in a language you don't know

https://www.reddit.com/r/SaaS/comments/1lp3scg/i_am_giving_up/

Christoffer S.Jul 6

@nixCraft For anyone interested in the thread:

...create something and it is working without coding knowledge

I feel like that's mutually exclusive :P

Will

@nixCraft he/she should have spent time learning to code. This is the problem with the AI tools you can not debug/fix/tweak code you do not understand.
“Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it” ~Brian W. Kernighan
AI can’t grow and learn the way a human developer does and will never be able to debug the code it writes. Neither will vibe coders!

GhostOnTheHalfShell Jul 6

@will @nixCraft

Well, it’s more than just that too. It’s when you you know, refactor code or and something to the system that occurs to you after as you sort of feel your way through what needs to be implemented.

These software assistance don’t have that kind of awareness. They can take your statements, English statements and turn it into a plausible bit of functioning code…

Daniele Pantaleo 🦥

@nixCraft I'm shit at writing code (not good at math and algos), yet I refuse to use AI or similar to get even remotely near my code, but instead take long stop periods (even months, it's hobby projects anyway) and come back with a fresh mind and better understanding of the language involved.

@ozone89 @nixCraft as far as maths: you don’t have to be an expert in maths to be a great programmer. Also don’t forget that Boolean IS maths. Might not be the most advanced it certainly can get very complex.

Some classes I excelled in I was not well as a kid and struggled with maths but I have done incredible things with C for decades.

I have surprised myself with maths as well.

So don’t let limited maths experience get in the way of programming.

@ozone89 @nixCraft example. I did 3d maths in maze code that I had no idea I could do. I took the maze code in the MUD I am part of and extended it to all directions. Sometimes things just come to you. I really like how you do not go for LLM (which is really what this OP is talking about). You won’t learn much if you don’t do the work in it.

Too many people want the easiest route but that route is very often the longest route that you might not even get through.

Daniele Pantaleo 🦥

Jul 7

@xexyl thank you for the uplifting!

That's what I'm doing, albeit within the tight limits of what I can understand.

@ozone89 you are most welcome. It’s a matter of persistence. People call it computer science. It is more than a science. It is an art. And one doesn’t have to learn ir in a class. I am self taught. Actually in school I was forced to do a C++ class (I HATE C++!). I was bored to tears and on the side doing low level asm. Decades ago. I hate C++ even more now.

If you find something you want to do and you persist you can often do way more than a class could possibly teach you!

Daniele Pantaleo 🦥

Jul 7

@xexyl at least they taught you a modern, useful, language.

In my classes, we did Pascal and Delphi.

@ozone89 I don’t think C++ is that useful actually. Data encapsulation is more of an illusion (getter/setter) and frankly C++ is very bloated. There are other issues too. Although yeah probably more useful than Delphi!

But actually it has changed so much since that time that it wouldn’t matter.

I didn’t actually learn much from it. I did it on my own years later until I couldn’t stand it any more. It’s hideous. But personal preference I guess can rule a lot.

@ozone89 a funny one with C++. The supposedly improved std::string. Yes until you need a char *. Then it’s not improved. Better to learn how to use pointers instead of relying on objects. The fact they have the c_str() and data() is because of their trying to encapsulate everything. Good luck with sockets without low level pointers!

Not saying you can’t do good things with it. I can’t speak as a C++ expert but I prefer having control.

Again preference. Keep at it either way!

@ozone89 so if you enjoy it just keep at it!

Best wishes mate!

RejZoR Jul 6

@nixCraft I had my own Autohotkey code and to translate it to new syntax it would require god knows how many hours to learn it. So I dumped it into Ai to convert it. New code was beautiful, even had comments that I didn't have. When I tried compling code with new Ai converted V2 syntax it was error after error for every god damn line lol. I was removing lines to see when it will work and gave up when I removed half of the code.

poleguy looking for lost tools Jul 6

@rejzor @nixCraft for some tasks though it works much better than an error on every line. Vhdl to Verilog is a 99% solution for simple files. You do need to be a 100% expert though to fix the last 1%.

Internet Rando Jul 6

@nixCraft "hats off to people who can create without coding knowledge."

Dunning-Kruger meets Dunning-Kruger automation

Su_G Jul 7

@mousey @nixCraft

Perfect!: “Dunning-Kruger meets Dunning-Kruger automation”

Thanks for the laugh! 🙂

Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC Jul 6

@nixCraft I totally suck at complex software projects, so I mostly stick to coding quick and dirty command line tools that do just one thing.

Galad Jul 6

@nixCraft With the amount of work it takes to get AI to do things right you’re better off doing them yourself.

Dustin Jul 6

@nixCraft who are these people who have NO coding knowledge and can make things work?

I DO have coding knowledge and always struggle to make things work!

poleguy looking for lost tools Jul 6

@digitalkrampus @nixCraft they don't exist: they are selling you a bridge. (Maybe they make their money selling a promise of results.)

Show me one example of a non expert getting this to work. Nope. Nope. Nope.

kit Jul 7

@digitalkrampus @nixCraft Marketing. The software that wroks perfectly on powerpoint (or slide projectors) was ever thus.

Dustin Jul 7

@hypostase @nixCraft fantastic, haha

Json Doh Jul 7

@digitalkrampus @nixCraft
Right?

But oftentimes it's also "it works but how? why is it working!?"
🤣

nLupo

@nixCraft There goes the so called "productivity".

Scott Miller 🇺🇦 🇺🇸Jul 6

@nixCraft FWIW, some of that frustration happens to traditional coders with decades of hard-earned experience.

Ever code a latent bug that was never manifest because your system never triggered the edge case before, but then you add a feature that hits that edge case and brings the bug front & center? You spend hours looking at the new code but can't find the bug? Only when you grind away, examining the existing code base, do you find the latent bug.

Experience is a great teacher.

h-1^[legacy]Jul 6

@nixCraft that's right... we still have a job.. people who can't code at all, will still come to us to code with AI :)

cedill-aride soleil du sud Jul 6

@nixCraft
The whole thing is that, "coding" isn't just about writing the code.

I spend more time reading, (trying to) understanding, reformating and correcting micro-small-nano mistakes from me/others than actually writing long 1000 lines of code.

(The joke is that I mainly do code quality assurance)

EDIT: english not my native language

xinit ☕Jul 6

@nixCraft
Let the pain come! Feel the rage flow! This is the way of true developer powers!

stony kark Jul 6

@nixCraft maybe actually learn how stuff works then bud

BoxOfSnoo Jul 6

@nixCraft I’ve slowly been introducing AI to my coding and have had phenomenal results. The key is knowing if it gives you back garbage or not! The newer products will give you a “keep/undo” button, and it takes some skill not only to make the prompt but to know what to keep/undo.

Matilda Love Jul 6

@boxofsnoo have fun burning down the planet while learning nothing

BoxOfSnoo Jul 6

@matildalove have fun repeating nonsense phrases everyone else says to seem cool

Hamilton Lumati Jul 6

@nixCraft he didn't say please to the AIs, so they started giving him wrong codes

GhostOnTheHalfShell Jul 6

@nixCraft

So what this is saying is the what probably $1 trillion of money incinerated into AI into copilots has managed to reinvent spaghetti code

Spiritech Jul 6

@nixCraft I really like the end. Instead of gaining any appreciation for actual devs, they give their hats off to the person(s) who pull working AI code like its a super rare pokemon card.

lord pthenq1 Jul 6

@nixCraft
Here is an idea: let's use AI to make medicine!

�Jul 7

@pthenq1 @nixCraft is it really that bad? i mean using some machine learning clustering algorithm for like 50th order matrices doesnt sound that bad

lord pthenq1 Jul 7

@utf_7 @nixCraft
Bad to apply AI to healthcare?
Every false positive and every false negative has the potential to result in a patient's death.

Added to this are poor symptom descriptions, missing data, and typing errors.

The effect of hallucinations on diagnoses.

Etc

�Jul 7

@pthenq1 @nixCraft aah, i was meaning in research e.g. for finding some protein structures in big data to identify relevant vectors for medicine research.

yeah, otherwise i agree with your answer

Wulfy Jul 6

@nixCraft

Been there #vibecoding myself.

Like writing Emperors human purity certified code, you need to spend a fair chunk of your time designing. If you are just going to hack at the wall of code without design, you're going to have a bad time.

There are techniques for coding, vibe or not.
This person is very likely poor coder, vibe ain't gonna save them.

It works for me.

gunstick Jul 7

@n_dimension @nixCraft always keep your code smaller than the context window of the AI.

Wulfy Jul 7

@gunstick @nixCraft

Good advice. And since we are doing #vibecoding advice...

Be very specific what you want to accomplish.
Don't prompt "Do what you think looks good".
Say "Red over green"

Do a:
"Summarise current progress and problems for the purpose of new session". I regularly hit the bottom of the context window and have to respawn.

Tyler Parker Jul 6

@nixCraft first learn the rules - to comprehend when breaking them.

geomaster337 Jul 6

@nixCraft going forward, can we get a Reddit content warning or at least its presence in the post/ alt text so we can filter it out? Thanks!

MegatronicThronBanks Jul 6

@nixCraft Those mythical people!