Mastodawn

Jean-François Gonzalez May 16, 2025

Tip for folks outside the US that want to hire folks within the US....

...when discussing compensation don't lead with the wages/salary.

In the US, almost all of our compensation is salary based.

Our health insurance (NOT healthcare. Insurance), often requires us to:
- Pay out of our wage into insurance just to get it
- Pay out of pocket (insurance does not apply) until we reach a deductible
- Pay high "co-pays" out of pocket even when insurance covers some of the medical care
- Pay for our own prescription medications
- Pay astronomically for any emergency care

Our "retirement" (HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!) is just us investing in the stockmarket and requires that we take money out of our salary to buy stocks (if we're lucky, our employer "matches" a contribution up to like 2% or whatever - but you don't get that unless you pay first).

We often don't even get paid time off! Some of us are lucky and get a week PTO and some sick days off per year. But that's in we're lucky. I personally don't get any paid time off. I can take days, sure, but I don't get paid for them. I can take a sick day off, but I don't get paid for it. Holidays are bitter sweet.... yay Christmas, but I better save up for that forced time off without pay.

So for us in the US, the wage / salary is quite literally everything.

If you have social programs like healthcare, retirement, maternity/paternity leave, holidays, even sick leave... attach a monetary equivalency number to it and LEAD WITH IT.

I just had a friend who got an amazing offer to move to and work in the Netherlands and his absolute initial disappointment at seeing a "very high salary" at less than half what he makes now just gut punched him.

It took him a bit to realize that he got all these other things that he normally pays for out of pocket individually.... and the add-up was phenomenal and paid SO MUCH MORE than his current total compensation.

#brainDrain #fediHire

__Miguel_May 16, 2025

@tinker
Good post.

Though I'm assuming everyone else will start with the salary upfront because, quite literally, EVERYTHING ELSE IS EXPECTED, or most likely, legally mandated.

So leading with what everyone already knows they're getting, or perks of the job, is completely contrary to the expectations of anyone in the EU, both for employers and employees.

Now someone please tell US peeps that in many places in Europe you're paid 14 months in a year... Yes, it's called vacation and Christmas pay 😉

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

@nanianmichaels - That's my point though.

That is what they're doing right now.

So, yes, that is was is expected outside of the US, but not was is expected inside the US, so if you are attempting to get a person inside the US to work outside the US, you will want to lead with it.

Or don't.

And you'll scare away a a good chunk of the folks youre trying to hire.

Neil Craig May 16, 2025

@tinker Wow, do you not get a pension at all? Alongside the state pension (which is pretty low) I contribute 8% and my employer contributes 10%.

I naively thought pensions were pretty universal.

Also can't quite believe it's legal for you to not be paid when you're unwell. We have annual limits but are fully paid for days off ill up to that limit.

Apiary May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker labor laws in the US are pretty horrific.

Pete May 16, 2025

@Apiary @tdp_org @tinker freedom to treat your workers like shit… it’s the American dream and built into capitalism from the ground up. The Grapes of Wrath is a fantastic critique. #ReadSteinbeck #Steinbeck

Nicole Parsons May 16, 2025

@Apiary @tdp_org @tinker

America never moved past a labor market built around the concept of slavery and the whip of an overseer.

Religions that promote "Pregnant & Barefoot in the Kitchen" attitudes to women in the workforce too.

It's embedded deeply in the national psyche.

That realization provides necessary context to the human resources philosophy of American corporations.

https://www.epi.org/publication/rooted-racism-part4/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/opinion/minimum-wage-racism.html

https://theconversation.com/slavery-was-the-ultimate-labor-distortion-empowering-workers-today-would-be-a-form-of-reparations-162334

The ongoing influence of slavery and Jim Crow means high poverty rates and low economic mobility in the South: Rooted in Racism and Economic Exploitation: Part Four

Efforts to continue exploiting Black workers led to racist anti-worker policies that continue to maintain high rates of poverty, low economic mobility, and high levels of inequality for workers of all racial and ethnic backgrounds in most Southern states.

Economic Policy Institute

Epic Null May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker No pension. The money for my retirement comes out of my paycheck!

And yes, it's expected for sick to be unpaid.

NiceMicro May 17, 2025

@Epic_Null @tdp_org @tinker I'm sorry, but what do you think retirement / pension money is coming from in other countries?

In my country everyone is paying for their own retirement, but the government takes it off your salary with your taxes, and it doesn't go into an account with your name, so if you're young your only choice is to pray that there will be money in the country's fund for you when you retire.

Epic Null May 17, 2025

@nicemicro @tdp_org @tinker You mean like Social Security? We have that. I won't be getting any though - it will be long gone by my retirement.

I thought pensions were a "work for so long and get money from the company after retirement" eeal.

Advanced Persistent Teapot May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker it took me a while to realise that the "401k" that everyone talks about is basically just stock market investment in a pretty dress

Not that ours is -lots- better since the switch to defined contribution pensions, but it is a -bit- better.

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

@http_error_418 @tdp_org - lol, I'd say 401K is stock market, but worse. You can invest in the market, but there are penalties if you take it out before you're in your mid sixties or for other very specific reasons.

So... stock market but worse.

Neil Craig May 16, 2025

@tinker @http_error_418 Wow, that seems super weird. Feeling pretty fortunate to be where we are in the UK TBH.
Is there no other way to save than stocks?

Johan Sköld May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 technically you can save whichever way you want. Including stuffing cash in your mattress. 401k is mainly the go-to since contributions aren't taxed until you take it out, and since some employers match contributions.

But once money is in there, there aren't a lot of options AFAIK. It's basically just an investment account. There's also an annual cap on how much you can contribute to it, which is too low for a sustainable retirement in some areas of the US.

draeath May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 it's important to note those penalties are all around taxing.

401k "contributions" (investments) bypass income tax. If you cash out early, you have to pay for the tax that you bypassed - this is the penalty as far as I understand it.

Edit: actually there's additional penalties on top of that. Ugh.

Advanced Persistent Teapot May 16, 2025

@draeath @tdp_org @tinker realistically I think the only way in which our pension schemes are better than 401k is stronger regulation around the investments and guarantees for pension holders in the event of a provider going bust. And I'm not even 100% sure of that.

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

@draeath @tdp_org @http_error_418 - no, thats not accurate.

There are two main ways of taxing 401Ks and IRAs.
- Tax it before you invest (and no taxes when you withdraw)
- Tax it when you withdraw (and no taxes when you initially put money in to invest)

What I'm talking about is the 10% penalty fee ON TOP OF taxes if you withdraw money prior reaching 59.5 years old (and outside of some specific exceptions).

draeath May 16, 2025

@tinker @tdp_org @http_error_418 oof, thanks for the correction. It's even worse than I was thinking. 🫩

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

❤️

@tdp_org @http_error_418

floyd aka floyd_ch May 17, 2025

@tinker @draeath @tdp_org @http_error_418 interesting. In Switzerland we have that too, but it's called the 3a pilar (no taxes), whereas 3b is just your savings account (regularly taxed). But there is also pilar 1 and 2 (also no taxes, both mandatory for employer and employee to pay): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaktRIPRjWY

The 3-pillar principle of Swiss pension provision

YouTube

Chantaru May 16, 2025

@draeath @tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 this is basically what a Canadian RRSP is. The investment is not the stock market. The RRSP is a tax free container. You put money in the container and then you invest it as you see fit ( in a financial product. )

Rob Zazueta May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 The 401k is basically an account you pay into where you can invest in a small number of securities such as stocks, ETLs, and market funds.

The savings are tax deferred - you don't pay any taxes on them until they mature (sometime in your mid-60s, assuming you make it that far).

You *CAN* just save in a savings account, but there's no special tax handling or anything. If your returns don't beat the rate of inflation, though, you basically wind up with less.

Rob Zazueta May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 To be clear: this is a relatively recent development here. A couple of decades ago - and even now in some govt orgs - pensions were still fairly common. My dad retired after ~30 years driving forklift and lives on social security payments and his pension.

It *BARELY* covers the nursing home he is now in, which we have to pay for. He has Medicare - govt health insurance for older and disabled folks - topped with a private paid plan to fill the gaps.

Raven667 May 16, 2025

@robz @tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 That's the thing too, private services like that will expand their cost to make them *barely* affordable because they are maximizing revenue, and they'll pay *minimum* for staffing and facility quality that they can legally get away with. They know relatives will try and fill in the gaps so they are happy to squeeze as much money out as they possibly can. See also for-profit hospitals.

It's all so stupid because we have enough wealth to solve all the worlds problems, climate change, hunger, healthcare, etc. so that no one has to work if they don't want to or cannot, we just choose not to use our resources to do so and let it uselessly collect in a few hands. It's madness.

Rob Zazueta May 16, 2025

@raven667 @tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 Exactly. The home he is in was a private home - literally a house in a neighborhood with a bunch of rooms. It was owned by a private small business.

They informed me a couple of months ago that they are selling to a private equity firm. When that happens, I fully expect his level of care to drop. It's causing some stress.

Ideally, we'd be taking care of our people as a default and none of this would be stressful.

But... money....

Raven667 May 16, 2025

@robz @tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 money is a great innovation but it's not something to collect like pokemon or a high score, it's just a tool to be used to provide safety and security for all, which money-hoarders dont understand

Erzbet May 16, 2025

@tdp_org
401Ks are usually a pre-tax withholding so your annual taxable income amount is reduced while you are putting the money into the market... on the other side, you have to pay tax when you are withdrawing the funds...with the assumption that your income will be lower when you retire so you'd owe less in taxes.

Which doesn't really make it any better...just more confusing. lol.

@tinker @http_error_418

Kelvin n0mql EN35ld May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418
ONE of the 401k providers I've had included some "money market" options. Low interest, but close to zero risk.

Then my employer switched which provider they would use, and the one we have now doesn't have that option, if I remember correctly.

The media's done a good job of convincing US folk that "oligarchy" is a specifically Russian thing. Nope. We have it too, & it might be worse than Russia's.

floyd aka floyd_ch May 17, 2025

@kelvin0mql @tdp_org @tinker @http_error_418 in Switzerland and most of Europe you can have that problem of switching providers too (e.g. in switzerland for the so-called pilar 2), bug employers can't just switch and usually employee agreements are necessary

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.May 16, 2025

@tinker @http_error_418 @tdp_org It depends. It is always stock market, but you are allowed to invest your pre-tax income, so you avoid your marginal tax rate by putting it into a 401k. So, if the funds you would buy are available in your 401k AND you _probably_ won't need to liquidate before retirement, you might get a "bonus" of up to your marginal tax rate even with no employer-match.

The fact that it's pre-tax money is why the penalties are so steep if you take it out early, so that you don't just funnel "all" your income through it to avoid taxes entirely.

It's a fairly bad system, even if it has worked out well for me so far. I'm a big fan of UBI, but making sure that every wage is a living wage and that SS retirement is a living income would be an improvement (and we could still have the 401k/IRA/Roth stuff, it just would be less panic-inducing to deal with; it _feel_ like if you do it wrong, you will die in poverty).

Zimmie May 16, 2025

@tinker @http_error_418 @tdp_org The early withdrawal penalties make it worse for general savings, but money going in pre-tax at least makes it slightly better than a normal investment account for retirement specifically.

Then more recently, there’s the Health Savings Account (HSA). To get one, you have to have a high-deductible health insurance plan (so insurance pays *nothing* until you spend $1500-$6000 out of pocket). It’s basically a 401k (money goes in pre-tax, and there’s a contribution limit), but you can pull the money out free of penalties and taxes to pay for healthcare expenses (and a lot of stuff can qualify). Still not great, but at least better than a 401k.

schrotthaufen May 16, 2025

@http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker Germany wants to go that way, as well 😭

Mirishuli May 16, 2025

@schrotthaufen @http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker Do not let them Schrotthaufen. Get loud and stay loud and keep your ”welfare state”. You

schrotthaufen May 16, 2025

@MiriShuli @http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker We might need some lessons from the French to drive home the point though 😂

ladyteruki May 16, 2025

@schrotthaufen @MiriShuli @http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker : are you under the impression that our protests regarding retirement have been successful ?

schrotthaufen May 17, 2025

@ladyteruki @MiriShuli @http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker I kinda was 😅

ladyteruki May 17, 2025

@schrotthaufen : I don't have the best of news for you...

Urzl May 16, 2025

@schrotthaufen @http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker Everyone in the world needs to see the USA as a warning, not an aspiration.

If you're not a millionaire here by the time you're 40, you'll die poor.

Rachel May 16, 2025

@http_error_418 @tdp_org @tinker and then your get fun things like "the state of California pension fund demanded that company X cut costs" because state and government pension funds are some of the largest holders of if certain stocks

Wm.son May 17, 2025

@rachel @tinker @http_error_418 @tdp_org

All I know is the state I worked for matched my contributions and I'm so grateful. It's not a million dollars, and I can't look at it now because #TFG. But so grateful.

Denton Gentry May 16, 2025

There is Social Security, which is mandatory to pay into from wages. Employee pays 6.2%, employer must match 6.2%.

Social Security tax is capped at $176,100 annual wages, people making more pay 6.2% only on the first $176,100. So the very rich don't pay much as a percentage.

Social Security could be made financially viable by removing that cap, but Republicans block doing so and instead want to raise the age to claim, make it harder to claim benefits, and reduce the payout.

@dgentry The earned income cap increases every year or sp for Social Security witholding. There is no cap on Medicare witholding. These wages are earned income. Only earned income, or whatever the government decides is "earned income", including self-employment net income after allowed business expenses, is subject to Social Security taxes. Self-employed peopke with earned income pay both the employer and the employee portions. Most wealthy do not have much, if any, earned income--it is all passive, unearned income and explicitly exempt from witholding. The reasoning is that the wealthy can afford to pay for their retirement while wage-earners by and large cannot. The system and method used to compute paid out Social Security benefits is very opaque. The government is dishonest about how they handle Social Security taxes, saying that they are held in trust, or Al Gore's "lockbox", to saying they go into the general fund, etc. Given that they want to abolish Social Security pensions but not the taxes, it seems that the latter would be closer to the truth.

The cost of an employee to an employer is greater than salary/wages plus benefits. The employer has additional business, tax and insurance costs per employee. At one time, the total per-employee cost was calcuated to average about 150% of wages paid. By some metrics, that has been reduced to slightly more than 100% and by other metrics it has increased to over 200%. This as well is rather opaque because employers are now much less forthcoming about their costs.

Employee costs, including employment taxes (FICA/Social Security & Medicare), Workers Comp, health care (aka "health insurance") and insurance fees are tax deductible to employers and there are various creative and permissible legal and accounting tricks to nullify these expenses while still deducting them for tax purposes.

Mlep May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker what's a pension? 😅

Nonya Bidniss May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker It depends where you work. I worked for companies where I had no health insurance, no paid sick or vacation time, and no retirement plan. But I also worked for companies that had all that plus other things like paying 100% of advanced education. In the end I retired from the Federal govt with health insurance, a small pension of about 25% of what used to be my take home pay, and a 401k that I got 5% matching during the years that I put into it.

AI6YR Ben May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (sorry... pensions were taken out back and stabbed and killed two decades ago for most private employers).

derekheld May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker Social Security is only a very half measure. It sorta operates like a government run pension but the contribution rates are not nearly high enough to actually be a pension AND it has a tax cap where anything you make over about $165k per year is untaxed for Social Security.

This means that in practice, you still have to contribute an additional 10%-15% (on top of your Social Security taxes) of your income to a 401k or other retirement investment account to have any sort of hope of a comfortable retirement. But you also better hope you never become disabled and can’t work because even if/when you manage to get disability income from Social Security chances are it won’t be nearly enough. So to supplement that you could opt into paying even more money on your benefits to get long term disability coverage that maybe hopefully will help out more but may also take you paying a lawyer tens of thousands of dollars to fight for wrongly denied benefits. Plus your regular Social Security retirement payouts don’t start until your late 60s unless you take a significant early retirement penalty which many are forced to due to being unable to work because of health or dependent care reasons.

So basically to retire in the US you have to contribute/spend some 20%+ of your own income for 50+ years AND hope nothing bad ever happens to your health or the health of your spouse/dependents otherwise you’re screwed.

Joe May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker Americans get Social Security which is what would be called a pension elsewhere. But it isn't very generous and usually has to be supplemented by savings to have a comfortable retirement.

Neil Craig May 16, 2025

@not2b @tinker Sounds a lot like our state pension...not a lot but a baseline at least 👍🏻

Clark Breyman (he/him)May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @not2b @tinker - keep in mind that medicare also kicks in but as insurance not an integrated system. Medical providers expect the patients to act as “guarantor” for all fees then work with whatever coverage they have to pay it (less deductible).

Ω 🌍 Gus Posey May 16, 2025

@tdp_org A good pension is like finding a fat ruby in the sand and about as likely.

Louis Ingenthron May 16, 2025

@tdp_org @tinker Can confirm. I'm approaching 40 and I have no pension and I've never been paid for a sick day in my life and everything I have for retirement I've invested myself.

That's just how it is here.

Mab_813 May 16, 2025

@louis @tdp_org @tinker

That's just atrocious. It's not like we're sick for fun?!

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

You've gotta flip it around.

It's not a questions of what is right or wrong... It's a question of corporate profits. Corporations sole goal is to make money.

You do this by increasing the price of the good or service to as high as it can go (charge what the market can bear) and decreasing the costs of making that product or service....

...including the cost of labor, or human capital, or human resources.

So... if you aren't working, why should the company pay you? That's a loss for them and affects profits.

You might say, well, if they don't pay you can just leave for another job.... but they're all like this. So where will you go?

So generally what companies do is they treat human resources AS CONSUMABLES...

Read that again.... their workers are meant to be *disposable*. Ramp them up. Force labor out of them as much as possible. Pay them as low as they'll take. Burn them out. Fire them (immediately, without cause, it's legal - look up "work at will states")

Then hire up the next person who is damned near close to homelessness and is desperate for anything to be able to eat.

If they have a degree, they're under a LOT of debt with high interest rates which means they won't be able to pay off the debt which means they need more money than even the cost of living just to keep surviving.

Make sure the social safety nets are gone so that folks will work or die. If they ARE able to save up money, hit them hard when they get sick (healthcare is for profit as well). Easy to get predatory student loans at high interest rates to pay for education that continually costs more and more and more.

If they lose their house, they become homeless, so make being homeless a crime and you can get actual slave labor out of them in prison (look up the 13th amendment in our constitution... it ENSHRINES slavery).

The US has the highest amount of prisoners and the highest per capita amount of prisoners. We love our slave labor. Homelessness is increasing. Wages are stagnant and dropping. Even the last vestiges of our social safety nets (guaranteed right to buy health insurance that doesn't cover anything and an embattled social security)

Edit to Add: "The system isn't broken... it was designed and built this way. And it's working exactly as intended."

@louis @tdp_org

Louis Ingenthron May 16, 2025

@tinker @Mab_813 @tdp_org Yup.

Very small businesses sometimes put the welfare of their employees first, but they can't really compete with the companies that put profits first. And, as soon as any company grows big enough for an IPO, the stock market demands unending short-term gains which involve hollowing out what made the company great before its IPO, including employee benefits.

Everything here is geared to screw the people at the bottom to enrich just a few folks at the top.

Louis Ingenthron May 16, 2025

@tinker @Mab_813 @tdp_org And the saddest part is that the customers (who are also the workers) seem to agree with this system.

Everyone says "Oh, why can't they make things that last like they used to?" But small businesses go bankrupt trying to do just that every single day. Consumers want things cheap and disposable, and that includes labor. It's why you can get fired in so many states *for no reason at all* perfectly legally.

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

@louis @Mab_813 @tdp_org - indeed

Mab_813 May 16, 2025

@tinker @louis @tdp_org

Not sure why I get this sermon. Yes I pointed out that not getting paid sick days is atrocious - but that does not mean that this US problem is new information for me. I live in Austria but yes, I've heard about slavery in your constitution and right to work laws and your prison population.
Why on earth should I look up stuff in YOUR constitution?? Stuff that I already know about?

I bet I know more about the US constitution than you know about Austria's constitution. It's not exactly a secret that your workers laws and health care systems are ...severely lacking.

Tinker ☀️May 16, 2025

@Mab_813 @louis @tdp_org - didnt mean to give you a sermon. thought we were having a discussion.

Mab_813 May 17, 2025

@tinker @louis @tdp_org

me: one short comment
you: a long sermon telling me lots of things I already know because - for some unknown reason - you just assume I don't know all that and I get told that I "should look it up"

That's not a discussion. That's you assuming you know sooo much more than me and therefore you dump all that ~ amazing ~ wisdom on me, a complete stranger

If you can't understand why that's unnerving than I probably can't explain it any better.

But maybe look up "mansplaining" or "westsplaining" because these are the same phenomena: People just assuming that they are more clever and know more than others and immediately going into full-blown explaining mode.

Tinker ☀️May 17, 2025

@Mab_813 @louis @tdp_org - I apologize.

chatkitty May 17, 2025

@tinker @Mab_813 @louis @tdp_org @andrewdwilliams It’s why there’s such a strong forced birth campaign being waged by the money worshipping, prosperity gospel spewing, unfettered greed-mongering capitalists. Gotta make sure their “I got mine” crowd have consumables that are composed of renewable resources that have no other option but to serve the “greater interests” rather than a free, stable, healthy population of people who have the option of saying No.