Dana Fried

The thing I want to see most in an #Oblivion remaster is a rework of the game's incredibly bad level scaling system.

I was enjoying myself until I realized that I had picked the "wrong" build and would be unable to progress the game regardless of what I did.

If all enemies and loot scale to your level then there's no point in engaging with any of the content or leveling because it's always going to be equally hard and you're never going to find anything interesting (and it might even hurt you)

Apr 15 at 11:21pmWeb
Show threadDana FriedApr 15

Morrowind had the right idea - enemies scaled with you, but only through a fixed range based on area.

Also the dungeons, monsters, and treasure were hand-crafted and not randomized slop.

Show threadDana Fried23h ago

this thread is extremely relevant TODAY evidently

I will not be playing remaster on release because I have a bunch of other stuff, and I'll be waiting to see if they have in fact fixed level scaling

Show threadGeePawHill23h ago
@tess Being by nature inclined towards something like an "assassin" role -- stealth + range -- all of the Elder Scrolls was littered with build-breaking tank bosses. I *loved* the mixture of plot and faction and sandbox, which they did very very well. But I hated having to deal with tank bosses in an empty 40m diameter room.
Show threadmcc23h ago
@tess It sounds like it's only a graphical, not a gameplay rework. It would be nice if I heard wrong…
Show threadDana Fried22h ago
@mcc they do talk about updating the leveling system to be slightly more like Skyrim so it's possible, but nobody talks about enemy or area scaling in trailer videos so we'll have to wait until people have played a bit to find out.
Show threadmcc21h ago
@tess oh, that's good
Show threadsahqonApr 15

@tess Though the loot should have been randomized between a few different places because after the xth playthrough you just beelined for the best stuff that fit your current char. If it was at least put in a random place in a dungeon, it would have been better (lots of places you had to cheese but if you didn't know where to cheese...)

But level scaling is an abomination. If you don't invest in a very specific fighting build, you are actually downgraded every level.

Show threadEmily_SApr 15
@tess also more weird stuff. The dude with the scrolls of Icaran flight who drops out of the sky just outside the starting village isn't something that happens in the later elder scrolls games
Show threadLevi KornelsenApr 15
@emily_s @tess - Oblivion's best stuff was Weird Damn Villages and the Shivering Isles. The main quest was just middlin'.
Show threadsahqonApr 16

@LeviKornelsen @emily_s @tess Oblivion's quest (including the main quest where you weren't even the hero, but the sidekick, I mean, who else dares do that to their game?) were the best in the series imho. It was the bland environment, repetitive gates and the god-awful levelling that was bad in it. And I disagree with there not being weird stuff. There was plenty weird stuff there. But the levelling meant that you could not randomly come across anything actually useful and so you were just "meh" about all the nifty little weird stuff they put in it.

And then they fixed a lot of things in Skyrim, except the levelling and it cost us every last bit of weird, that fix. In some ways Skyrim is the worst of them, but at least it's playable on vanilla, unlike Oblivion (I don't play any of them on vanilla actually, even Morrowind is only made next level with LGNPC)

Show threadIan Douglas ScottApr 16

@emily_s @tess Morrowind also has more NPCs and lines of dialog than Oblivon or Skyrim. Those were easy to add in a game without (much) voice acting.

Which also made them free to include more weird stuff there.

Show threadDana FriedApr 16
@ids1024 @emily_s the world-building in Morrowind was some of the best in all of gaming
Show threadEmily_SApr 16

@ids1024 @tess tbh it's not even that. It's the giant bugs as public transport and the city built into the shell of a giant crab and the wizards houses with no stairs.

So many things that got diluted into generic fantasy between morrowind and oblivion.

Show threadIan Douglas ScottApr 16

@emily_s @tess I think the larger number of NPCs each with their own little place in the world (even if they don't actually move around and do much) does add something to making the world seem fleshed out.

But yeah. The flora and fauna and culture of Morrowind all seems unique and memorable, while the setting and culture of Oblivion and Skyrim fall more into generic fantasy tropes. And that probably is a bigger part of what makes Morrowind stand out.

Show threadEniko FoxApr 16

@tess sneaking through a hard dungeon in morrowind and receiving awesome loot just isn't possible in a game that scales everything and that's why scaling like that sucks

In oblivion I wandered off into the far wilderness and found a dungeon but then realized that it didn't matter cause everything was scaled to my level anyway. Meant there was zero reason to explore

Show thread0xC0DEC0DE07E9Apr 15
@tess all builds became “wrong” if you played long enough. An open-world game that mechanically discouraged exploring and doing all the things.
Show threadDana FriedApr 15
@c0dec0dec0de my understanding is that the optimal strategy was to play a paladin and complete the main quest at like level 5
Show thread0xC0DEC0DE07E9Apr 15
@tess that sounds terrible
Show thread0xC0DEC0DE07E9Apr 16
@tess ugh, I just remembered the idea of picking primary skills that you wouldn’t normally do to space out levels until you got enough secondary skill points to max out your attribute gains.
Torment Nexus-ass leveling system.
Show threadj_bertolotti21h ago
@c0dec0dec0de
If I remember correctly in Daggerfall you could soft-lock yourself for levelling too fast by choosing as your primaries stuff like running and thus levelling super-fast without actually getting any better at fighting/magic 😃
@tess
Show threadCassandra Granade 🏳️‍⚧️Apr 16

@tess Seriously, one of the worst leveling systems I've ever seen. Lile, having to be careful to not overcap picking flowers because that might trigger a level up and get mountain lions chasing you? Or making custom summon spells with zero second duration and 1hp healing spells, then just always casting them while walking around?

I played the absolute shit out of that game, but yeah, the leveling was just cursed.

Show threadcthos 🐱Apr 16
@xgranade @tess Or bandits that show up wearing glass armor, trying to shake you down for 10 Septims.
Show threadNate Vack 🍴22h ago

@tess Yeah, I'm surprised that made it through playtesting. It was just super weird -- you spend a bunch of time leveling and getting better gear and... those random bandits in a cave are suddenly bronzed gods of raw power with insane loot

Both super easy to irrevocably hose your character, and to minmax for absurd builds

Such an odd set of design choices in an otherwise cool game

Show threadSteve Williams22h ago
@tess
I heard they were going cancel the Oblivion Remake in the US, because everyone’s tired of revisiting hell holes.