Signal has long said it'd "rather shut down or leave a market" than add a backdoor or weaken its encryption.
Apple also had this option when it was ordered by the UK government to build an iCloud backdoor. Apple could have said — without violating secrecy laws — why it was leaving the UK, rather than weaken the security of all of its UK customers.
Instead, Apple capitulated to the demand to keep operating, and prioritized its profits over its customers' security.
Instead of having secret backdoored #e2ee or being in a position where they might end up providing that…Apple is making it very clear to users in the #UK that they can’t really provide E2EE, and it’s because of the UK’s government. Full disclosure. If people want to maintain their #privacy they need to use something else. (And/or pester their government to change the snooping laws they have.) 3/?
@zackwhittaker “caved” into following the law is an odd way of putting it.
Leaving the UK market, and forcing users to move to a competitor who has added the encryption backdoor, is the worst of all worlds.
I’m not sure what else could be done.
@shane @zackwhittaker your argument isn't sound, as you're dealing in hypotheticals, but i like that you're countering what most of this thread is saying.
i would add that abandoning millions of users due to a stupid policy that may ultimately be rescinded is also a bad approach. i can't fault apple here.
@zackwhittaker Given the draconian sentencing of climate protestors and the way that the UK courts are defining protests as “terrorism”, no UK Apple user should have a photo of a protest, or a note expressing any Green sympathy. The same applies to any sympathy for Palestine.
It seems I was safer using Apple in China than I would be in the UK.
@zackwhittaker it strikes me that you don't really even understand what is happening here. ADS is an optional opt in feature. UK wanted Apple to weaken it by adding a backdoor. Rather than weakening this optional feature, Apple is no longer offering it in the UK. Are you suggesting Apple should entirely leave the UK market even for users not using ADS?
The UK had originally asked for backdoor access to even non-UK citizens using this feature, which Apple is not complying with.
The motivation behind Apple's capitulation... investments by petrostate despots terrified of regime change & desperate to keep their fossil fuel hegemony
https://www.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-crown-prince-visits-apple-google-2018-4
The Arab Spring terrified the corrupt royals of the UAE, Qatar, & Saudi Arabia
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/heavy-lies-the-crown-the-survival-of-arab-monarchies-10-years-after-the-arab-spring/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%932012_Saudi_Arabian_protests
https://www.vox.com/2016/1/7/10725896/saudi-insecurity-iran
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring.html
@zackwhittaker and even this concession doesn't let them off the hook. If the "technical capability notice" leaked to the press is correct, they are required to put a backdoor in iCloud encryption *anywhere in the world*. Even the Chinese Communists have not been this brazen in their demands.
Apple employs indirectly 80,000 people in the UK. The only legal way they can rebuff the UK's exorbitant demands would be to pull out of the country completely.
@zackwhittaker Can't have a US company not trying to make money. Retreat from the UK is not an option, instead the customer's security is sacrificed to keep the nose in the trough.
Just glad i have no business/products from Apple in the first place. Never liked them anyway.
@zackwhittaker This shifts the burden of resistance from the company to the users.
I'm not sure I like this better - not all users are educated enough to understand the ramifications, and they don't have the legal resources to fight it.
For a company that wants to profess to have strong privacy standards, this seems like an odd maneuver.
@zackwhittaker The Signal comparison doesn't really make sense because Signal has no presence in UK, does not have customers (much less in UK), and will continue to serve people in the UK as a hostile rogue state that infringes basic privacy rights if needed, just like they do in other such states.
Apple on the other hand, as a business, has not set things up to protect the people in hostile jurisdictions who rely on their products in the event that they withdraw. This of course is on them, and on capitalism, but it doesn't admit the same path forward.
@zackwhittaker
I've been thinking a lot about this hypothetical recently. If you have detailed thoughts, I'd love to hear them!
Ignoring the possibility of an empty threat as a PR stunt, could Apple really leave the UK?
Their website lists 40 retail stores across the UK, representing probably thousands of workers who would need to be laid off. Shuttering all 40 stores would be a large(ish) financial loss; they probably entailed hundreds of millions of dollars (USD) in investment into real estate, building, and furnishing.
And what of the existing customer base? Presumably Apple "no longer operating in the UK" would involve a complete ceasing of all support, which would probably violate UK waranty laws. Plus, what happens when a UK citizen’s iPhone breaks? They might be able to go over to France or Ireland to get it fixed, but from my experience, the international warranty policies are a bit of a mess.
Apple would obviously have to shut down iCloud completely within the UK, but that would cripple a lot of their products’ capabilities and be obviously bad for the product owners (including entailing the loss of photos for most people). Would they have to shut down the App Store too? Would they even have to revoke all the existing app certificates, rendering people unable to use any already-installed app on their device?
@zackwhittaker Capitulation would be complying with the order to add a backdoor that they cannot disclose. Exiting the market and denying users other private services is not in the user's interests either. I think what Apple did was reasonable.
Let's all chill down a bit.
oh I guess it only matters if you refuse to unlock phones for the *US* government.
Or if you can turn not capitulating to the government into a publicity stunt that will make you more money, rather than having to stop selling iCloud subscriptions throughout the entire EU
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