Ron Gilbert (GrumpyGamer)Lets say I have a base damage of 100 and skill that does double damage and another skill that does +5 damage. What would you expect?
205 damage
210 damage
Poll ended at .
Viss@grumpygamer in theory, if you apply the +5 first, and then double damage, you get 210. if you apply double damage first, and then the +5, youd get 205, so this feels like an order of operations question
Waffel@Viss @grumpygamer No shit, Sherlock!? 😄 (Had to say that, but don't want to be offensive, just kidding.)
I think the long form of the question is, that you don't want it to matter in a game in which order you apply the skills when playing. That said, the question is, which raise in damage does the player expect having both skills? Hence the poll.
Janne Moren@grumpygamer
As a player I want *more* so I'd expect/hope for the second thing. But that can easily become unbalanced.
So I would make it clear to the player: say that the skill does "2 * base damage" or "2 * total damage", depending on which you choose.
Josh 
@grumpygamer I would expect the rule book to spell out the order of operations for stacked buffs. It would also be a useful segment for providing the copy protection key.
Bo Brinkman@grumpygamer my thinking is that whatever the system, do what is most advantageous for the player, when they have agency, to avoid feel bads. So 210 is better than 205. I think this is true even though it *hurts* the player when they are on defense. I suspect most players care most about offense, so they are likely to be more upset about "losing 5 points of damage!" if you go with 205.
merely rhys@grumpygamer In a game where there's some mechanic around sequencing things right I could expect 205, but I think I'd probably expect 210 most of the time — while maybe encouraging wording like, "Doubles total damage after all other skills," or such.
Gooey Time Kilroy@grumpygamer Honestly I think it would depend on how the game system prioritized skills, and which was triggered first. As a gamer I would hope 210, but would probably expect 205 until proven otherwise.
Tyler@grumpygamer I would typically expect flat bonuses to be applied before multipliers
betahuman@tylermullins @grumpygamer I second this. Because without some strict order of operations, applying multipliers first converts a "2x" multiplier into a "+100% base" bonus (which wouldn't be a bad way of phrasing it if, for instance, you don't want multipliers to stack, either).
Alexander The 1st@tylermullins @grumpygamer There is one exception that comes to mind; the very few games that apply reduction modifiers (i.e. "Attacker's Attack - Defender's Defense") *after* the multiplication factor on the Attacker's Attack.
But that...generally leads to an even wider possible damage spread, and...likely means the flat bonuses aren't worth it at all.
Simon@grumpygamer I would say that depends on how the game presents the skills (e.g. in which order/ranking). I would be fine with both as long as there is some logic rationale.
Steven Deobald@grumpygamer i definitely *expect* 205. i *hope for* 210.
this is the “hey dm, how do these buffs stack?” of d&d applied to video games.
occasionally (rarely) i’ve seen this actually be an order-of-operations thing, in both cases. add +5 first (as the player), congrats!, you win 210 for smartly stacking your buffs
Melbourne Bitter@grumpygamer If there was no way for the player to affect the order of operations I would expect the additional damage to also be multiplied because bigger numbers are more fun
Bob Smy Uncle@grumpygamer either you have to worry about add/multiply ordering forever (and hold on to all your modifiers and recalc every time, which you might want to do anyway) or you write a value class that keeps a running adds/multipliers like this one I wrote after asking this question:
https://gist.github.com/bowlercaptain/d5a9307c8a2e1cd7a0b8d052a3a4e9e8
Might not be your language but you can steal my math if you like; this gives you "210" no matter the order you stack the mods in.
sbszine@grumpygamer 210 is more fun, 205 is more intuitive
Jeff Bridges@grumpygamer 210. I'd expect it to be doubled last unless it said "double base damage".
Stuart Langridge@grumpygamer hm. I had to sit there and think about it, which suggests that I don’t have an intuitive expectation here. (I eventually plumped for 205, analogising to D&D critical hits doubling the dice but not the modifiers, but that’s not at all obvious). What that suggests is either one will be unexpected to half the players, maybe!
Hanneke@grumpygamer after some consideration I would expect the x2 to apply to base damage, which is maybe influenced a little by the order of the buffs in the phrasing of your question. It would help if the skill info said “x2 base damage” (or “x2 total damage”) instead of “x2 damage”
Leandro (Cerberus1746)@grumpygamer I think it's better if you go with the order of activation, like Balatro, jokers are executed in the order they are.
Anthony@grumpygamer I think it needs more verbiage, can say it doubles the base damage or it doubles the whole attack.
Bruce Elrick@grumpygamer
Order of operations.
Order of operations.
ESG@grumpygamer 205, I would expect the bonus to calculated from base only
trusty falxter 🧠
@grumpygamer
I remember games where it depends on the order. So you better skilled the absolute boni first and then the multipliers, where possible. I think Cossacks way one of these games. 🤔
I remember games where it depends on the order. So you better skilled the absolute boni first and then the multipliers, where possible. I think Cossacks way one of these games. 🤔
🅱🅻🆄🅴🅱️Depends on where the calculation takes place.
The game can say doubles your total damage, or adds to base damage.
T_X@grumpygamer in most games, double damage is a temporary thing, I think. And then when activated it would double whatever you had at that moment. So even as a permanent bonus I would go with applying it last.
Also if the game were heavily using/relying on +x modifiers then it would feel like a rip-off to me if it were only doubling the base damage and by that maybe only adding +10% in reality. Unless it were clearly saying to only double the base damage.
Also if the game were heavily using/relying on +x modifiers then it would feel like a rip-off to me if it were only doubling the base damage and by that maybe only adding +10% in reality. Unless it were clearly saying to only double the base damage.
@grumpygamer on the other hand - would be funny if double damage were part of a weapon's rune/glyph/gem slot system. So that it would matter in which order to add them to a weapon, making the sorting a little "mini game". Or if they were attached permanently, non remixably that it might be a bit of a gamble to add the double damage now to beat this tough boss. Or later, when more slots are filled, for a higher doubling effect.
Matthew Barber@grumpygamer If x2 is on toggle, you'd expect double the sum of any buffs applied before or after activation.
If x2 is a triggered event that expires after a period of time, it would depend on the description of the ability. "Double all damage." reads as multiplying after. "Double current" does not.
You've written the question in a way where people are reading it as a series of operations. In game people are going to be thinking about combo-ing abilities with persistent effects.
David Zaslavsky@grumpygamer Personally I would expect the rules of the game (assuming this is a game 😛 ) to specify which order to apply the effects (skills) in, or to clarify that the player can choose, or that it's determined by the flip of a coin (probably a pain to execute in practice), or some other unambiguous method of determining what the answer is. But I really can't bring myself to say that either of these is the answer I'd expect without knowing what rules are in place. I just don't have any expectation that this question is answerable without a rule system.
Farbs@grumpygamer Another vote here for "+5 base damage" in the description, to clear up ambiguity.
But ultimately I reckon you're deciding between prioritising accessibility (keep the words simple and do whatever works best for balance) or strategic play (spell out everything always).
Lyons@grumpygamer depends on the order your jokers are in? 😉
I think in a power fantasy the multiplication should happen last. And if it doesn't because of power creep or something it should be obscured because "200 damage! 5 damage!" shown back to back looks silly. Heh
Kaution
Thomas@grumpygamer depends on the order of gaining the bonus? If I pickup a "double your damage" item an then a "+5 damage" item: 205
And it drives me crazy when games don't respect order of pickup 🙃
Spencer Christiano@grumpygamer
Both are valid—as a player, I'd expect further explanation of how each buff works mechanically. Something parenthetical would suffice: "+5 damage (not affected by multipliers)" / "2x base damage (does not increase other buffs)."
As a *player*, I generally love it when my buffs combine with each other in cool ways. I'd only ask that the resulting gameplay be adequately balanced to compensate.
(All that said, as your post is written, and without elaboration, I'd expect 210 damage) 😊
Daniele Pantaleo 🦥
@grumpygamer said 205, but I think it depends more on the order those skills are in their tree.
Chip@grumpygamer The way I'm used to, and might show my age based on the kind of games I've played, is that multipliers get applied before additions.
Frank@grumpygamer Depends of skill priority and if stackable
Bas (Tools on Tech)@grumpygamer While my engineer brain would go for order of operations. When it's gaming then big number go brrrr. You do risk exploits once players figure it out as they will maximise the plus bonuses to hit max multipliers.
Oblomov@grumpygamer both are possible. The second is usually better specified as adding 5 to the base damage (i.e. before other bonuses are applied). Sometime who has played enough games will know this and expect this to be clarified
rockpick@grumpygamer so 205 ppl voted 205 Damage, and 210 ppl voted 210 Damage 
@grumpygamer its +5 but the other skill doubles (all?) damage. So without any damage categories I would always expect 210.
Iron Helmet Games@grumpygamer I would consider naming one skill +5 base damage, and the other +100% final damage or extra damage.
@grumpygamer I like the Balatro system, you add all the base values, add all the multiplier, then do base x multiplier.
The numbers go up, it's fun, your target numbers increase accordingly, which means that you can't be satisfied with your build, you have to keep upgrading and optimizing.
With a multiplier first, then bonus, you have a more linear increase, so a good build could last you a few levels, which would be a bit boring.
Ric@grumpygamer I think the general.approach is to consider base stats to be an accumulation of everything you're wielding/wearing/drinking/whatever, as well as character stats. So if your char is level 30, you're wearing armour that adds 20 and a sword that adds 50, and you drink a damage potion that temporarily adds 5, then your base isn't the 30 or the 100, it's the 105 until the pot runs out. Multipliers then work on top of that base, so a 2x magic spell would give you 210.
Blackthorn@grumpygamer There is no correct answer. Both approaches are valid and really depends on the game, as I've seen both.
As a player, I learnt to not expect anything and research the math on the Internet to know how modifers stack, game by game.
As a player, I learnt to not expect anything and research the math on the Internet to know how modifers stack, game by game.
Ben Porter@grumpygamer if I'm boxing for 100 dmg, then wear gloves for a +5, then get quad-arms for double dmg i'd expect to hit for 210 with four gloves
@grumpygamer I went with 210 - unless the skill says "doubles base damage", in which case 205 would be my pick.
David Amador@grumpygamer imo the scale modifiers should come last unless there’s visual reason showing the order/why. The best outcome, which on other hand you can also do the worst outcome when it comes to debufs and feels fair. But a way to present the player with the reasons/order might be to describe the skills in steps. “After enemy gets hit, (SKILL) doubles the damage”
Josh Simmons@grumpygamer I'd probably just like the game to make it known somehow. I don't think there's an expectation because I don't think most gamers actually calculate damage, and those that do can probably understand the difference between "base damage" buffs v.s. "added damage" buffs
TBari@grumpygamer In my head double damage means it doubles whatever damage you do. +5 damage is just +5 damage ... but it's doubled ☺️
eWe@grumpygamer in the RPGs I remember it would be 210 because most games show base stats then Boni / mali added to the base value and then they sum up the percent effects and apply them as last step.
Eniko (moved ➡ gamedev.place)@grumpygamer 210 damage, but the interesting part is what if you have two damage doubling skills? Does it become 315 or 420?
arclight@eniko @grumpygamer I'd like it to be 210 but I wouldn't be disappointed (much) if the rule was simply [base damage] × [base multiplier] + [bonus].
Without putting on my +3 Helm of FORTRAN and defining history-based or lore-based priorities for order of operation, either ([base] + [bonus]) × [multiplier] or [base] × [multiplier] + [bonus] are reasonable. The former is good if you keep additive bonuses low so they scale as you get better multipliers - that +3 Helm of FORTRAN stays relevant longer. If you want players to chase better gear and macguffins, leveling up that +3 to +30 to +300 and adding the bonus to the multiplied base stat is good.
As a non game-dev but as a system modeler, I'd advocate for using the damage calculation to reinforce what sort of gameplay you're trying to achieve and set player expectations accordingly (a clear and consistent rule, an opaque metagame for dedicated accounting nerds to decipher, etc.) More damage is always better, as long as it's going out and not coming in :)
Ronflaix@grumpygamer oh yeah, if you want extra fun, try looking how Warframe manage its weapons' damage and how players keep repeating to newcomers to not trust the mods' UI because the firmula is way different from what's shown in the armory.
Moah@grumpygamer as a Paradox gamer and programmer, I expect anything between 100 and 315.
But seriously I guess as a player I'd want 210, but this can get out of hand quickly
But seriously I guess as a player I'd want 210, but this can get out of hand quickly
alethenorio@grumpygamer I don't think there's a right answer necessarily here but the way I think is that all bonuses work off the base damage so +5 damage is +5 damage. So you'd apply each bonus separately and not cumulatively. Therefore 205 is the way I think
Uli Kusterer (Not a kitteh)@grumpygamer “expect" is a strong word. You can do more with a skill if it it interacts with other skills, so I chose 210. But in the end I just expect it to be consistent. Like, + are always applied first, then *. If * is applied first, I'd expect it to say “base damage" not just "damage”.
It gets interesting when you have double damage and +20%. Which one applies first? The game has to somehow give the player the ability to predict/control which one it will be. And not “order of equipping”.
Martin Hall@grumpygamer Make all the buffs additive to avoid people complaining
Kelvin van Hoorn@grumpygamer it really depends on the wording of the modifiers.
Without extra context I'd assume double damage works like a critical hit, where I expect the final damage to be doubled, i.e. 210.
Otherwise I would specify it as doubling the base damage. Or otherwise denoting that the +5 is added afterwards.
The important part is the wording as it shapes the expectation.
@grumpygamer If I had to set a formula I would go with a split of base damage and total damage.
Output = ((weapon damage + base addition) * base multiplier + total addition) * total multiplier
It does mean addition goes first.
Torbjörn Andersson@grumpygamer I'm getting this horrible mental image of a game mechanic where the player would get to decide by dropping the upgrades into a flowchart, trying to maximize the positive effect and minimize the negative ones.
(At least I assume it would be horrible.)