@hacks4pancakes well I get the hypocrisy but not trusting computers to count votes is a pretty good take imo. We of all people know how easy it is for computers to get things wrong, and worse, how hard it is to figure out what it was exactly that went wrong.
Edit, to clarify: It’s ofc fine to use computers to count paper ballots. But replacing them with digital votes would be a problem, and this quote suggests (to me) that they wouldn’t consider that a problem, which bothers me
Xerox scanners/photocopiers randomly alter numbers in scanned documents Please see the „condensed time line“ section (the next one) for a time line of how the Xerox saga unfolded. It for example depicts that I did not push the thing to the public right away, but gave Xerox a lot of time before I did so. <iframe width="700" height="394" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c0O6UXrOZJo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The cognitive dissonance is just wow.
@hacks4pancakes to be fair, it's well established that we can't trust his self-driving cars as well
He'd never admit that directly, of course
@hacks4pancakes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc&t=152
(i watched the whole video for this timestamped link)
The only thing you can't trust is a biljonair.
@hacks4pancakes you could never trust computers to count votes.
@hacks4pancakes
#ElonMusk is a moron, AND I CAN PROVE IT:
Besides the fact the South African born owner of the largest #EV car manufacturer in the world is backing a man who calls #ClimateChange "a hoax" and will roll back ALL #CarbonReduction targets currently in place…
…He claims to fear what #Harris will do to him if she wins.
Ergo, he'd be better off supporting pro-EV Harris working to ensure she wins.
But this isn't about fear of Harris' retribution. It's about POWER, RACISM & HATE.
Well, guess he knows the quality of his product…
@hacks4pancakes Well, we can't trust computers to count votes.
People who care about clean elections count pieces of paper by hand.
If Musk were chosen as republican presidential candidate, and you were the democrat candidate, would you feel safe in a road anymore?
@hacks4pancakes If you want to vote remotely and by computer,
you can key the candidate of your choice into any available Tesla.
Your vote counts!
@hacks4pancakes Goddammit, this is such ignorant bullshit...
To begin with, the computers in the cars are protected much better than those of the voting machines.
Furthermore, it depends on what "voting machines" means. In my country they are just glorified printers. The voter uses the computer of the machine to select a vote - but eventually the selection is printed and then counted by hand.
And if the meaning is "remote voting", then voting has requirements like anonymity, non-repudiation, authentication, protection from coercion, etc. that car computers don't need and don't have. I once wrote a small essay on this subject - "why we can order cucumbers over the Internet but can't vote remotely".
Oh, yes, and the self-drviving part of Musk's cars pretty much sucks; I wouldn't trust that, either.
@hacks4pancakes With the current state of Tesla's self-driving, lives surely are in the balance, LOL.
They did try to implement fully electronic voting here but, thankfully, we made them see some sense, so we're using the glorified printers for now. And even that is optional - I mean, they have to be available, but people can select to mark their vote by hand on a piece of paper, if they so prefer.
@hacks4pancakes Sorry to hear that but I don't understand what my posts have to do with it. I assume it's because you're afraid of the possible new government? Then it's the fault of that government and of those who voted for it; requiring a trustworthy and and secure voting process has nothing to do with it. Besides, I was speaking about my country.
But let me elaborate on the "trustworthy" part, because this was one of the arguments we used here. See, if the voting process is "hackable", an adversary (internal or external) doesn't even need to actually hack it. All that is needed is to demonstrate the possibility and this would undermine the trust in the election process. So, an old and established method that people already trust is preferable. If it were up to me, I'd remove computers from the process entirely - pen and paper only.
WTF do you mean fully electronic voting? Like, online and on the internet? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
That's not how it is done in the U.S. No! Voting machines are never connected to the internet, ever! Electronic voting machines still use paper printouts for backups thus making them 100% secure.
The point of the meme was that Elon, who knows how computers work, has displayed a deep ignorance towards those voting machines operation. Thus making the meme 100% valid.
Elon is not as smart as most think. He became a billionaire because of his daddy's money. He got stupid lucky with PayPal. He bought Tesla (he didn't invent electric cars). He's not a genius and he is in fact an immigrant interferring in our elections.
Speaking as someone who has worked on both voting machine security¹ ² and automotive embedded systems security,³ ⁴ I can say: Lesley is 100% right, and your take here and below is wrong and (in context) harmful.
Automotive ECUs communicate within a car over high-speed networks. They are connected to the outside world via cellular and other wireless networks. In a drive-by-wire car, compromised ECUs can cause physical harm.
For the 2024 election, voting machines in nearly all jurisdictions will record the voter’s selections on a paper record that voters can check.⁵ Voting machines are just one part of a careful system of election procedures that is software-independent: one in which we can have confidence in the reported outcome of an election even in the (hypothetical) presence of compromised or malicious voting machines.⁶
__
¹ https://votingsystems.cdn.sos.ca.gov/oversight/ttbr/Hart-source-public.pdf
² https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~hovav/dist/avc.pdf
³ https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~hovav/dist/cars-oakland2010.pdf
⁴ https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~hovav/dist/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf
⁵ https://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/#mode/navigate/map/ppEquip/mapType/normal/year/2024
⁶ https://www.carnegie.org/publications/securing-vote-protecting-american-democracy/
@hacks4pancakes despite Republicans voting against that election reform bill, we've managed to increase the share of auditable machines. Something like 98.5% of voters live in districts with voter-verified paper audit trails or manually marked paper ballots, and there are generally various checks during initial tallying and recounts to avoid shenanigans.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/election-security-50-states/
I still prefer India's machines for supply chain / physical security:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_India
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