Brian Bucklewpeople are like degrowth isnt possible but just delete all crypto and ai farms and you degrowed a lot and nothing of value was lost
Kiëd Llaentenn@unormal I think there's too much conflation between the degrowth of "let's use what we have, but wisely" and the degrowth of "we need to trash our washing machines, live in caves, treat cancer with herbs, and regress to the 1600’s".
aerique
PJ CoffeyCities, anaesthetic and other modern medicine is good actually.
But so is not reopening a nuclear power station for the sole purpose of running generative AI.
Growth can't be infinite. But we can definitely do smarter things with what we've got without losing our standard of living.
Nova🐧✨@unormal yea only free range farms are any good, if they're so good then why wouldn't the whole community participate and save on electricity
Peter Butler@unormal Very true and indicative of our major problem on this planet
We can’t stop consuming natural resources as fast as possible, let alone decrease
NO NAMENothing of value was lost, my ass. What about all the medical breakthroughs already discovered with AI? Nothing of value was lost, is what people with no creativity or vision for the future say.
Everything we use today went through the same trials of hate and fear. The car, the iPhone, even the television all were hated and feared when they were invented. Yet, they all survived and so will AI. Embrace it or get out of the way.
Yeah I get it #Mastodon hates #AI, but I don't!
But fuck #Crypto, that shit is literal air.
Mike Perham@jeff they’re talking about generative AI, not every flavor of AI. Gen ai is the thing that uses absurd amounts of power.
@getalifemike that is what I am talking about as well. Gen AI sourced medical breakthroughs in the past 2 years stand alone. No doubt a lot of power is required right now, so what? This will change when better tech is invented/discovered in short time.
#Crypto needs to go though. Crypto is a pure unadulterated ponzi scheme and uses the same absurd amounts of power with less than zero benefits for the world. It is literally just air disguised as currency.
Neil E. HodgesI don't think you know what you are talking about one bit. The car is still today an eco nightmare. Cars changed things on the same scale or maybe worse due to when cars were invented...there was no EPA regulation.
The power consumption is only an issue right now. As better power tech is invented/discovered, the consumption will get under control.
Just like the death car, the cancer causing iPhone, and the mind numbing television - things with Gen AI will get better.
We do need to start by dismantling all #Crypto infrastructure to help even things out. The crypto bro's will just have to find a new gig.
Mx Verda@MxVerda OK that may have been a tad abrasive. I don't and didn't mean it like that.
Gen AI is here. There is nothing anyone can do to reverse this. So my statement meant that people should learn to help rather than blindly blocking progress. All the haters see is the power consumption requirements right now. Not a single one has offered a solution or even a fraction of one.
When I supplied a link filled with a few citations and some follow up suggestions at the bottom, I was hoping to encourage some to join the conversation. Instead, they attack me and the citations I didn't author. For those people, yes, they should get out of the way.
internetsdairy@unormal what if they come for my funko pops
yopp@[email protected] i understand the reason why a lot of people say “all crypto is bad”, because 99% is scam, but that’s a privileged position to say so.
There a millions of people around the world who have no access to global payment systems. No Visa/Mastercard, no SWIFT/SEPA, no Revolut, Wise. Nothing.
And some crypto, especially “stable coins, like USDT, is critical part of their financial security, because they have no other means to get paid or transfer money to relatives, buy stuff, sell stuff and do all the things “regular” people can do with just a swipe of the plastic card.
So no, it’s not true: for a lot of unprivileged people “deleting all the crypto” will be a very serious loss.
cholling@alex @[email protected] I hear this a lot, but I've never seen proof that these people exist. Considering that the number of places that accept crypto as payment even in the first world is nearly zero, I have my doubts about the veracity of the claim.
Even if there was a non-zero percentage, say 10% (wild overestimate given concerns over infrastructure)
Then
1. Environmental catastrophe
2. Zero regulatory protection _by design_
It's just like banks! (But no protection from people stealing it).
Major Denis Bloodnok@cholling @alex You hear it a lot because crypto shills made it up. What's actually used widely is mobile (not necessarily smart!) phone based applications like M-PESA. (Yes, not everyone has a mobile phone, although vastly fewer than one might think... but a person without even a dumbphone sure as hell can't make crypto transactions either.)
@denisbloodnok @cholling
@mu
@dacig
@cholling
It’s not that I’ve read/heard or have anecdotal evidence: I *have to* use it. This is part of my ordinary life, and believe me, I don’t like it. It took me 3 years to open bank account, with some “help” and only because it’s now impossible to pay taxes by cash, can you imagine that? And you know, I can’t renew my work permit without proof of paid taxes. I can’t express how humiliating this whole experience was. And I’m lucky that I have enough financial resources to cover all this.
Hawala/p2p (usually crypto to cash/card) are available basically worldwide and this is a major use for USDT.
People around me have to use it, because they can’t open bank accounts. Some use it because it’s much cheaper than WU/other instant transfers (1%-ish vs 4-5% + shitty exchange rate)
You can check for yourself, and search on telegram. you’ll find hundreds of groups with tons of offers.
On a regional ad boards around here you can find goods/services that can be paid with crypto. Good chunk of webservices accept crypto. And this is a lifesaver for people you can’t just type 16 digits and buy digital services.
Another use-case are donations in countries with repressive laws against independent media, activists or “banned” NVO. Because in some cases you can get few years in prison for a donation and they use stuff like Monero so you can make donations with a relatively low risk.
I know few people who live in counties where national currency is in a free fall and it’s hard to find a place where your savings are relatively safe, so even crypto is better than local banks.
You don’t see it just because you never *had* to use this services, and that’s really a good thing, and I sincerely hope none of you *have* to at any point in your life.
This whole thing exists in gray area, there a lot of risks around it, it’s fucked up and all people should have same access to global payments.
Juan Per¢ent,🇲🇽 🍉,🇻🇪@alex @denisbloodnok @cholling @mu Ok granted. Some crypto can be useful, and remittances are a good use case. In the early days it was one of the selling points and sounded good.
Crypto could have been better used, but turned into a climate disrupting purely speculative "asset", with a bad name, causing knee jerk reactions. We should be better able to avoid middle men in exchanges, I as a Freelancer suffer from that...
Crypto could have been better used, but turned into a climate disrupting purely speculative "asset", with a bad name, causing knee jerk reactions. We should be better able to avoid middle men in exchanges, I as a Freelancer suffer from that...
@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig Where is "here"? If you really can't pay taxes without a bank account, and there are lots of people with cash but no bank accounts, it seems to me someone would open a business that would accept cash and pay your taxes for you for a fee. I have trouble believing that crypto is literally the only option available.
Even if there are people who use crypto as a last resort in cases like this, that's hardly an argument in favor of crypto, any more than desperate people turning to usurious payday lenders illustrates that those places have a purpose. It just means people figure out how to make a buck exploiting desperate people.
Even if there are people who use crypto as a last resort in cases like this, that's hardly an argument in favor of crypto, any more than desperate people turning to usurious payday lenders illustrates that those places have a purpose. It just means people figure out how to make a buck exploiting desperate people.
@cholling @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig Balkans.
As almost everywhere in the world can’t pay taxes for other people/companies. Before that you could pay taxes at the post office, given you have valid ID.
I don’t see this as an exploitation: it’s a tool, it does its job. Without this tool things would be much-much worse. But it’s awful that people have to resort to such tools.
To reiterate my point: we can wipe 99% of all of crypto, that are scam or built on deflationary model, including bitcoin itself, that for sure. And that definitely be good for our environment. But remaining 1% has true value for a lot of people
@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig You can't pay taxes with cash, but you can with crypto? That sounds like a deal the government made with a crypto company, much like what happened in Ecuador. Just because the government is in bed with crypto grifters doesn't make crypto suddenly beneficial.
It's like if a dictator decreed that you could only pay taxes in Nickelback CDs, it wouldn't suddenly mean Nickelback CDs serve a vital purpose. It just means that dictator sucks. If crypto didn't exist, your country would have to get their tax revenue some other way. No matter how brutal a dictatorship, they're not going to make it impossible for people to pay their taxes, because they need revenue.
It's like if a dictator decreed that you could only pay taxes in Nickelback CDs, it wouldn't suddenly mean Nickelback CDs serve a vital purpose. It just means that dictator sucks. If crypto didn't exist, your country would have to get their tax revenue some other way. No matter how brutal a dictatorship, they're not going to make it impossible for people to pay their taxes, because they need revenue.
@cholling @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig no, you can’t pay taxes with crypto. Now it has to be from bank account on payee name. I was talking that I had no banking account at all, no cards, nothing. All I had is cash. I used crypto to pay on internet and to get said cash via p2p. Sometimes I’ve asked friends who have bank card to pay for me and paying them back once again, in crypto. You can buy prepaid cards, but that’s expensive and quite risky.
This is what’s called “unbanked population”, I was in this group and it sucks
@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig So it is possible for someone else to pay your taxes for you. If you can pay someone in crypto to pay your taxes for you, you can pay them in cash, and if crypto didn't exist, some other service would take its place. It's just that crypto grifters have displaced them.
Hell, non-banking ways of transferring and borrowing money have existed for centuries. You already mentioned Hawala, which predates electricity, never mind crypto, so it's not as though crypto fills some niche that nothing else can.
It's like when people insist that Wal-Mart is good because it serves areas with no other groceries, hardware stores, etc., when the fact is those stores did exist once until Wal-Mart used their monopsony power to drive them out of business. Just because crypto currently serves some role doesn't mean it's the only, or even the best, way to do so.
Hell, non-banking ways of transferring and borrowing money have existed for centuries. You already mentioned Hawala, which predates electricity, never mind crypto, so it's not as though crypto fills some niche that nothing else can.
It's like when people insist that Wal-Mart is good because it serves areas with no other groceries, hardware stores, etc., when the fact is those stores did exist once until Wal-Mart used their monopsony power to drive them out of business. Just because crypto currently serves some role doesn't mean it's the only, or even the best, way to do so.
@cholling @alex @dacig @mu Also one has to ask if these supposed benefits are worth the downsides like the rise of ransomware.
(Supposed - eg anyone who is sitting on a stash of Tethers is not keeping money somewhere safe but risking still holding that bag when they turn out to be fairy gold. Which, to be fair, is something I expected to happen some time ago...)
Wulfy—Speaker to the machines@cholling @denisbloodnok @alex @dacig @mu
You guys realise that *ALL* major Governments are planning on #Crypto rollouts right?
Also, many plan on #NFTs , they call Crypto #CBDC and just one of the names for Gov NFTs are (distributed) "digital tokens".
And if you're self congratulating yourself on how you killed Crypto (you haven't) #BTC was at ATH not so long ago...
The Government Crypto makes the Crypto Bros Ponzi scheme look like a solid investment.
#BlockChain algorithmically is actually pretty cool when implemented ethically, and for the record I do not claim that #Crypto or #CBDC are that.
(Disclaimer: I do not own Bitcoin)
Jennifer Moore 😷Good point. For the world as a whole, it'd be better to put some resources toward ensuring everyone has access to money systems less greedy in power than crypto.
@alex This ils a link to an OECD paper on the use of crypto for remittances.
There appears to be very little info on actual working solutions. Numbers on volume even harder to come by.
So keeping energy hungry crypto so that maybe one day it will help out some people is the very definition what you need to get rid off first it you want to start a path to degrowth.
Typhon Baal Hammon@unormal It really all circles back to theories of values.
I mean is it really properly degrowth if the stuff in question was worthless in the first place ?
I mean is it really properly degrowth if the stuff in question was worthless in the first place ?
@Homebrewandhacking yes this is a good argument against producing the worthless thing in the first place. But that means the wealth is destroyed when they are created, not when they themselves are destroyed. @unormal
alcinnz@unormal The next thing I'd throw on the discard pile is most advertising! Can we please not put so much effort into convincing us to consume more?
I do think advertising has a role to play, but so often the institution's counter to its purpose...
@alcinnz @unormal
Honestly, I felt years ago “marketing / advertising is inherently evil”, but didn’t voice it because it seemed intuitively wrong somehow.
Now I’m like fuck it. Retrain them to use their transferable skills in training teachers and scientists to become better science communicators and advocates.
Honestly, I felt years ago “marketing / advertising is inherently evil”, but didn’t voice it because it seemed intuitively wrong somehow.
Now I’m like fuck it. Retrain them to use their transferable skills in training teachers and scientists to become better science communicators and advocates.
⠠⠵ avuko
Very Human Robot@unormal some people would say the same about soy milk!
London!@unormal @RussellsBarbershopQuartet looking out at the ruins of ancient civilizations and thinking… oh it is so very, very possible.
LR@unormal i make a similar point about almond farms
Tafadzwa@unormal do you see a plausible path to deleting crypto and AI farms?
Kerry Mitchell 🍁@unormal I don’t love crypto or AI but I also don’t think that energy efficiency is a strong argument against them. I’ve seen pro-AI people compare the energy consumption of computers vs artists - an extremely anti-human and reductive argument.
Raven667@unormal True, but I give de-growth fanatics a little side-eye because some of them are really just itching for a genocide (of "worthless people" in their opinion) and a fantasy of pastoral living that magically isn't wracked by disease, hardship and death. Those sorts can't be let too close to any levers of power to enact their delusions.
For the rest, chasing infinite exponential growth is obviously insane and we should stop trying to "make money" like a deranged paperclip maximizer.
Wyatt (🏳️⚧️♀?)@unormal also people could consider not having 6 kids (or any imo)
Frost, ᛁᛊᛟᛚᚠᚱ 🐺❄️
&@unormal Now this is the kind of degrowth I can get behind.
Not the "you're not allowed to enjoy computers!" shit some people do.
Licho@unormal I know a stateless person who only lives because he can access crypto. Yeah, it's rare, but there are genuinely oppressed people for whom it's lifesaving.
https://ergon.moe/blog/Coffee%20Is%20Subversive_Licho_2023-09-18.html
https://ergon.moe/blog/Coffee%20Is%20Subversive_Licho_2023-09-18.html
cybervegan (moved)@unormal No! Not THAT kind of degrowth!
@unormal The problem that the people really allude to is that we have an economic model built upon perpetual growth. It has to grow, or else it falls apart - and then governments collapse, masses starve in the streets, all becomes woe and ruin. It's one of those races where you have to always run as fast as you can just to stay where you are. We have to generate enough activity to keep everyone employed somehow, because the unemployed have no automatic right to food or shelter.
CyPlus if you stop them from being built in the first place, and you don't waste your time and resources on silicon, rare metals, and cement!
cafkafk@unormal we do need monero for DIY hrt, so a crucial lifeline for several trans people is not cut off (so not all crypto)
Andrew Bartlett@unormal The thing that saddens me most is how much the traditional economy has bought into both.
We as society let these scams get so large, the Ponzi has too much "invested" that unwinding them feels politically impossible.