people are like degrowth isnt possible but just delete all crypto and ai farms and you degrowed a lot and nothing of value was lost

@[email protected] i understand the reason why a lot of people say “all crypto is bad”, because 99% is scam, but that’s a privileged position to say so.

There a millions of people around the world who have no access to global payment systems. No Visa/Mastercard, no SWIFT/SEPA, no Revolut, Wise. Nothing.

And some crypto, especially “stable coins, like USDT, is critical part of their financial security, because they have no other means to get paid or transfer money to relatives, buy stuff, sell stuff and do all the things “regular” people can do with just a swipe of the plastic card.

So no, it’s not true: for a lot of unprivileged people “deleting all the crypto” will be a very serious loss.

@alex @[email protected] I hear this a lot, but I've never seen proof that these people exist. Considering that the number of places that accept crypto as payment even in the first world is nearly zero, I have my doubts about the veracity of the claim.
@cholling @alex You hear it a lot because crypto shills made it up. What's actually used widely is mobile (not necessarily smart!) phone based applications like M-PESA. (Yes, not everyone has a mobile phone, although vastly fewer than one might think... but a person without even a dumbphone sure as hell can't make crypto transactions either.)

@denisbloodnok @cholling
@mu
@dacig
@cholling

It’s not that I’ve read/heard or have anecdotal evidence: I *have to* use it. This is part of my ordinary life, and believe me, I don’t like it. It took me 3 years to open bank account, with some “help” and only because it’s now impossible to pay taxes by cash, can you imagine that? And you know, I can’t renew my work permit without proof of paid taxes. I can’t express how humiliating this whole experience was. And I’m lucky that I have enough financial resources to cover all this.

Hawala/p2p (usually crypto to cash/card) are available basically worldwide and this is a major use for USDT.

People around me have to use it, because they can’t open bank accounts. Some use it because it’s much cheaper than WU/other instant transfers (1%-ish vs 4-5% + shitty exchange rate)

You can check for yourself, and search on telegram. you’ll find hundreds of groups with tons of offers.

On a regional ad boards around here you can find goods/services that can be paid with crypto. Good chunk of webservices accept crypto. And this is a lifesaver for people you can’t just type 16 digits and buy digital services.

Another use-case are donations in countries with repressive laws against independent media, activists or “banned” NVO. Because in some cases you can get few years in prison for a donation and they use stuff like Monero so you can make donations with a relatively low risk.

I know few people who live in counties where national currency is in a free fall and it’s hard to find a place where your savings are relatively safe, so even crypto is better than local banks.

You don’t see it just because you never *had* to use this services, and that’s really a good thing, and I sincerely hope none of you *have* to at any point in your life.

This whole thing exists in gray area, there a lot of risks around it, it’s fucked up and all people should have same access to global payments.

@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig Where is "here"? If you really can't pay taxes without a bank account, and there are lots of people with cash but no bank accounts, it seems to me someone would open a business that would accept cash and pay your taxes for you for a fee. I have trouble believing that crypto is literally the only option available.

Even if there are people who use crypto as a last resort in cases like this, that's hardly an argument in favor of crypto, any more than desperate people turning to usurious payday lenders illustrates that those places have a purpose. It just means people figure out how to make a buck exploiting desperate people.

@cholling @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig Balkans.

As almost everywhere in the world can’t pay taxes for other people/companies. Before that you could pay taxes at the post office, given you have valid ID.

I don’t see this as an exploitation: it’s a tool, it does its job. Without this tool things would be much-much worse. But it’s awful that people have to resort to such tools.

To reiterate my point: we can wipe 99% of all of crypto, that are scam or built on deflationary model, including bitcoin itself, that for sure. And that definitely be good for our environment. But remaining 1% has true value for a lot of people

@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig You can't pay taxes with cash, but you can with crypto? That sounds like a deal the government made with a crypto company, much like what happened in Ecuador. Just because the government is in bed with crypto grifters doesn't make crypto suddenly beneficial.

It's like if a dictator decreed that you could only pay taxes in Nickelback CDs, it wouldn't suddenly mean Nickelback CDs serve a vital purpose. It just means that dictator sucks. If crypto didn't exist, your country would have to get their tax revenue some other way. No matter how brutal a dictatorship, they're not going to make it impossible for people to pay their taxes, because they need revenue.

@cholling @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig no, you can’t pay taxes with crypto. Now it has to be from bank account on payee name. I was talking that I had no banking account at all, no cards, nothing. All I had is cash. I used crypto to pay on internet and to get said cash via p2p. Sometimes I’ve asked friends who have bank card to pay for me and paying them back once again, in crypto. You can buy prepaid cards, but that’s expensive and quite risky.

This is what’s called “unbanked population”, I was in this group and it sucks

@alex @denisbloodnok @mu @dacig So it is possible for someone else to pay your taxes for you. If you can pay someone in crypto to pay your taxes for you, you can pay them in cash, and if crypto didn't exist, some other service would take its place. It's just that crypto grifters have displaced them.

Hell, non-banking ways of transferring and borrowing money have existed for centuries. You already mentioned Hawala, which predates electricity, never mind crypto, so it's not as though crypto fills some niche that nothing else can.

It's like when people insist that Wal-Mart is good because it serves areas with no other groceries, hardware stores, etc., when the fact is those stores did exist once until Wal-Mart used their monopsony power to drive them out of business. Just because crypto currently serves some role doesn't mean it's the only, or even the best, way to do so.

@cholling @alex @dacig @mu Also one has to ask if these supposed benefits are worth the downsides like the rise of ransomware.

(Supposed - eg anyone who is sitting on a stash of Tethers is not keeping money somewhere safe but risking still holding that bag when they turn out to be fairy gold. Which, to be fair, is something I expected to happen some time ago...)

@cholling @alex @dacig @mu And ofc anything that lets people avoid the financial strictures of oppressive regimes also lets them avoid the financial strictures of other regimes - or, in other words, commit crimes.

@cholling @denisbloodnok @alex @dacig @mu

You guys realise that *ALL* major Governments are planning on #Crypto rollouts right?

Also, many plan on #NFTs , they call Crypto #CBDC and just one of the names for Gov NFTs are (distributed) "digital tokens".

And if you're self congratulating yourself on how you killed Crypto (you haven't) #BTC was at ATH not so long ago...

The Government Crypto makes the Crypto Bros Ponzi scheme look like a solid investment.

#BlockChain algorithmically is actually pretty cool when implemented ethically, and for the record I do not claim that #Crypto or #CBDC are that.

(Disclaimer: I do not own Bitcoin)