Mastodawn

BenRiceM Sep 6, 2024

I agree with some of @gruber’s points:
- browser ballot pages are likely confusing for many users; being informed of choice != being forced to make a choice
- the EU should more in conversation with Apple about what features are non-compliant

But it misses the forest for the trees:
Apple holds ungodly amount of power over many aspects of daily life. Banking, grocery shopping, dating, communication, art and culture are all mediated by our phones
https://mastodon.social/@daringfireball/113091446183508943

John Gruber Sep 6, 2024

@BenRiceM Putting aside the argument that those things are better under Apple's App Store control than they were before or would be without (at least banking, grocery shopping, and communication -- I can't speak to dating in recent decades), the DMA, thus far, has reduced absolutely none of Apple's control other than being able to play Fortnite on iOS devices in the EU again.

Casey Liss Sep 6, 2024

@gruber @BenRiceM Delta has entered the chat.

@caseyliss @BenRiceM The DMA resulting in Apple reconsidering its policy on game emulators is a happy side effect, but the fact is we have Delta in the App Store now. And I think if you asked Vestager for 100 goals of the DMA, “game emulators in the App Store" wouldn't have made the list.

Casey Liss Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @BenRiceM Sure, but I _do_ think the goal is “ensure Apple’s customers more choice and stop Apple from standing in their way”.

If that's the ultimate goal — regardless of the _how_ — then I think the DMA is [marginally] successful so far.

John Davis Sep 7, 2024

@caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM

I love what they do and what they make, yet I find myself rooting for them to lose each of the lawsuits they’re in. iOS would be an undamaged platform with a notarized app installation system. They know they can’t compete fairly or just don’t want to.

Sinner BOFH Sep 7, 2024

@caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM DMA is a product of politicians that don’t understand _how_ (and _why_) Apple+iOS is so different than any other gatekeeper in history.

In my opinion, that’s why DMA is so vague, they don’t realize how frakking gatekeeping Apple+iOS is.

And Apple is behaving so entitled, they aren’t the rebels, the little guys anymore. And their behavior kinda stinks :-/

BenRiceM Sep 7, 2024

@Sinner Agreed, the DMA lacks clarity and misses the point in a few areas.

But Apple brought it on themselves by not opening up the platform sooner

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@Sinner @caseyliss @BenRiceM It’s been a long time since Apple presented itself as an upstart or corporate rebel. They wear their success honestly.

@caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM couldn’t agree more 🙂

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM but it’s not.

I don’t have the choice to mirror my phone to my Mac.

I don’t have the choice to have an assistant the understand my personal context.

But I can install Fortnite, I guess.

I’m getting a worse product than the rest of the world gets, and have no choice over that.

Sylvain G.Sep 7, 2024

@webjac @caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM oh please. Eu is a false excuse here. Apple already announced that Apple Intelligence would not be ready until next year. This year is an English-only beta for US only. They just put the blame on Eu for a choice they made. You won’t sell me that this is not a way to make customers angry on Eu

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@sgamel @caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM

Time will tell for sure. I hope they sort this out ASAP. I'm a European customer and it makes me angry... at BOTH... the EC for being unclear and scaring away innovation and Apple for acting like a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum.

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@sgamel @caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM

But the fact of the matter is that I could have had these features, this year, and now I can't. And both the experience and the product (that I pay an extra +20% tax here in Europe) is worse than I would get in the US where it would be cheaper and better.

Good job, EC and "thanks" Apple :/

BenRiceM Sep 7, 2024

@webjac I know it’s not really the point you’re making, but my hopes are not especially high for Apple Intelligence. I don’t think it’s going to be a panacea and Siri will still be a frustrating mess in even more unpredictable ways.

I was excited for Mail and Messages summaries, but I’ve already heard a few complain that they’re not reliable enough

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM Im more worried about it long term.

It’s meh now, but it’s a new core part of the OS, of the Apple experience and integration between platforms. It will most likely become a requirement for newer functionalities down the road.

I see it as Handoff was when it was announced, and see it now, it’s integral, essential.

And this rocky start could imply that experience might take years, or might never come to Europe. That’s what truly worries me, I don’t want to miss out on that.

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM imagine if the DMA was there when Handoff started, when the Apple Watch launched.

Apple is a lot about the integrated ecosystem. The DMA, however well intentioned it might be, threatens that.

And while I’m all for more options, more app stores, more choice… it doesn’t matter if the integrated ecosystem experience gets thwarted.

That’s why I’m being so intense on it, so “against” it.

I’m actually in favor of the spirit behind the DMA, but not at the expense of the ecosystem.

BenRiceM Sep 7, 2024

@webjac I totally get that being left out/behind sucks. As a developer I’d like to have access to Apple Intelligence more than as a user.

But I also think it would have awesome if products like the Pebble watch could have competed fairly against the Apple Watch! Imagine how much more exciting that whole product category could have been.

Not that I have any love for Humane, but their Pin would have been a lot more compelling if it could integrate with your phone as well as an Apple Watch

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM I agree. I wish they would open up and let others compete in their ecosystem.

But that’s so un-Appley. One of their longest running themes has been that integration and closed-ness. They have never allowed too much customization to users, they have never been too open with their ecosystems.

It’s one of the core feats they use to differentiate their products.

It’s basically asking Apple to Androidify iOS: be more open, allow access to all APIs.

Jaime Creixems Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM and I see why they don’t like that…

Look at Windows or Android. Definitely worsely designed and less enjoyable experiences, less consistency, more of a mess.

It’s an impossible trade off in design.. allow all customizations and still offer a cohesive, delightful, pleasant experience.

Apple has always been on the good UX side first and on the openness after. It’s kind of their thing.

Craig Grannell Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM @webjac I’ve yet to see a single summarisation tool that does a reliably good job. Otter is an interesting case. Its transcription is often superb. If you have reasonable quality audio, it does a great job. But it now defaults to summary pages and oh boy. They are bad. Same goes for every single LLM I’ve experimented with.

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@sgamel @webjac @caseyliss @BenRiceM (a) Explain the iPhone Screen Sharing thing, (b) what do you see as the point of Apple making EU customers angry?

Sylvain G.Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @webjac @caseyliss @BenRiceM well. Show me the DMA article mentioning that screen sharing could be a violation of DMA. I’m not 100% sure it exists, but _if_ this article exists, that mean Apple _choosed_ to just ignore it when they worked on this feature

Sylvain G.Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @webjac @caseyliss @BenRiceM That clearly not the first time they keep some API private until they refine enough to make them public (or not). But this is their call and they now blame the EU for that?
DMA is far from perfect, but it cannot be a generic excuse :)

BenRiceM Sep 7, 2024

@webjac I agree, not having access to screen mirroring is ridiculous. It’s the kind of integration that should be celebrated.

Apple Intelligence is still US English only, right? I don’t think it’s launching worldwide in any meaningful way, yet. Apple often have features that are US only at first, so I don’t think the DMA is the only holdup.

Being able to install game emulators is a direct result of the DMA and it’s a huge win for game preservation

Craig Grannell Sep 7, 2024

@BenRiceM @webjac The emulators thing was always weird. There have long been emulators on the App Store. What Apple banned was people loading files into them.

On the plus side, despite many, many daft rejections, things are slowly getting better (eg Apple finally allowing iDOS), although MAME4iOS is still having all sorts of issues (albeit reportedly now based primarily on the use of ‘MAME’ in the name).

Siguza Sep 7, 2024

@caseyliss @gruber @BenRiceM I think there's a subtle but important difference in that the DMA isn't about consumers, but about European businesses also getting a slice of the pie. Apple still gets to make the rules, they just have to follow them too now.

The DMA has done more than anything else in the past two decades, but it's still nowhere near what a consumer rights act would do.

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@caseyliss @BenRiceM What is the success so far other than giving access in the EU to a game that was fined $245M for swindling children out of in-app purchases?

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/03/ftc-finalizes-order-requiring-fortnite-maker-epic-games-pay-245-million-tricking-users-making

FTC Finalizes Order Requiring Fortnite maker Epic Games to Pay $245 Million for Tricking Users into Making Unwanted Charges

The Federal Trade Commission has finalized an order requiring Epic Games, the maker of the Fortnite video game, to pay $245 million to consumers to settle charges that the c

Federal Trade Commission

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM it does make me wonder if the initial domino to fall was Epic getting upset that Apple kept refunding their IAPs

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM this would be something that Apple (and maybe Google) would do that the consoles generally wouldn't, after all, despite similar percentages, etc

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM the DMA pressured Apple to allow emulators and virtual machines worldwide, and people in the EU can now use clipboard managers and torrent clients? I’m confused why you’re only counting Fortnite

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@rileytestut @caseyliss @BenRiceM The clipboard managers (well, manager, singular — yours!) that I’ve tried are still completely crippled in terms of being automatic. It’s the APIs and life cycle on iOS that prevent real Mac-style clipboard managers, not the App Store.

What are the torrent clients I should look at?

(Also: torrent clients are not exactly a mainstream use case.)

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM perfection is the enemy of good — obviously Clip is limited by iOS, but it’s still better than nothing 🤷‍♂️ I’m glad it’s an option for people that want it

And we released iTorrent & qBitControl on AltStore PAL in July, but iTorrent has also been around for a while on classic AltStore (and was fairly popular!) https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/24/24205036/iphone-ios-torrenting-apps-eu-altstore-pal

iPhone torrenting apps are now available in the EU

The first batch of third-party apps are making their way onto AltStore PAL, including two BitTorrent apps and a social discovery app for dating.

The Verge

Michael Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @rileytestut @caseyliss
@BenRiceM

Ok so, to recap — emulators, more video games, clipboard managers, torrent clients, alt store payment methods (i.e. Patreon)… and it’s only been 6 months. But it’s ok to pass judgement now, apps don’t take long to make, I mean look at what’s happened in 6 months! All the apps we have now were made in the first 6 months of 2008 too.

Ville Turpeinen Sep 7, 2024

@party @gruber @rileytestut @caseyliss @BenRiceM
Game streaming apps.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/25/24050430/apple-app-store-game-streaming

https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/21/24183027/antstream-emulator-apple-iphone-retro-games-ipad-streaming

Apple opens App Store to game streaming services

Apple is making changes that will allow game streaming services like Xbox Cloud Gaming and GeForce Now to be featured in its App Store.

The Verge

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM anyway, all that's happened so far is what was waiting in the wings. Most developers need stable ground to build upon, which no one can argue that the DMA has provided to this point. Once things have settled down, developers in the EU can start pursuing ideas without the fear of Apple telling them all their work was for nothing, and *then* we'll see more innovation.

Francis Chong Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM choice of apps on my phone, like torrent, emulator, virtual machine, clipboard manager… not policed by Apple.

toastedmilk Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM regulation isn’t the Vision Pro dude. Takes more than a few months to write it off as a fail.

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@Finin @caseyliss @BenRiceM It takes more than a few months for new products and features to hit the EU now too.

fuomag9 Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @Finin @caseyliss @BenRiceM I believe either apple is voluntarily holding off features as "crybaby" behaviour or their implementation doesn't care enough about data privacy, on which the EU is way more severe than the USA

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM It’s only been a few months. It could take a few years to ultimately judge how successful the changes are.

You weren’t so hasty to judge Vision Pro’s (lack of) success.

John Gruber Sep 7, 2024

@ravi @caseyliss @BenRiceM I’ve drawn final conclusions regarding the DMA where? I’m only judging the effects so far. But it doesn’t look good.

ɈƨɿoʜnɘvυႧ nɘɈƨɿɒƆ Sep 10, 2024

@gruber @ravi @caseyliss @BenRiceM I'm curious as well, let's wait and see. At least Apple is now treating its customers like adults. Aside from the somewhat childish way of not pointing out the consequences of deleting the camera app.

Ceolaf Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM what does the success mean for anyone who is not more than a casual gamer on their phones?

Alex Sep 8, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM is this the reason Apple took Fortnite off the App Store? Come on, let’s stop pretending that everything Apple does is right and holy.

While I don’t think the DMA has achieved what the politicians thought it would, it’s a good first step. It has to start somewhere, otherwise Apple will continue to turn the screws on both developers, and end users.

John Gruber Sep 8, 2024

@sennmood @caseyliss @BenRiceM Is it a good first step because you perceive its intentions as good, or because you perceive its effects thus far as good?

Alex Sep 8, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM I do perceive the intentions as good, yes. The effects, up to now, have been negligence, at best. However, part of that comes down to the way Apple chose to implement the DMA.

For example, why does iOS require a core technology fee, yet macOS (and any other OS, for that matter) does not? A lot of the value of iOS comes from the apps (see the Vision Pro, and its lack of), yet Apple chooses to very much ignore this fact. They are taking advantage of their power.

BlackSheep Sep 8, 2024

@sennmood @gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM “For example, why does iOS require a core technology fee, yet macOS (and any other OS, for that matter) does not?”

“The Core Technology Fee (CTF) is an element of the new business terms in the European Union (EU) that reflects the value Apple provides developers through ongoing investments in the tools, technologies, and services that enable them to build and share innovative apps with users.”

BlackSheep Sep 8, 2024

@sennmood @gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM And what kind of twisted logic is that because MacOS allows you to download and install 3rd party software freely so iOS should be exactly like that.

joshhunt Sep 7, 2024

@gruber it’s not a just happy side effect - it’s the entire point.

The DMAs whole point is that Apple faces zero competition in a bunch of areas. When faced with the tiniest bit of competitive pressure, Apple changes how it operates and makes its products better for users.

joshhunt Sep 7, 2024

@gruber Also remember Apple allowing game streaming services globally at the beginning of the DMA period, because it thought that would be a huge driving factor for people moving to third party app stores?

When faced with competition, brought on by the EU's regulation, Apple changes their products for the better. I don't see how this is anything other than a huge win.

Ville Turpeinen Sep 7, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM
Game streaming apps too.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/21/24183027/antstream-emulator-apple-iphone-retro-games-ipad-streaming

The first iPhone game streaming service brings hundreds of licensed retro games

Antstream’s iOS and iPadOS App Store launch on June 27th brings access to over 1,300 retro titles and discounted $3.99 monthly or $29.99 yearly subscriptions

The Verge

Thom Bullock Sep 8, 2024

@gruber @caseyliss @BenRiceM forgive the cynicism here, but the goal was to show that big tech can be made to come to heel. I don’t think it’s much more complicated than that.

John Gruber Sep 8, 2024

@myNameIsT @caseyliss @BenRiceM And how has that succeeded?