Dear Swifties:
The radical theocratic terrorists that targeted the Taylor Swift concert are functionally the same people that want to destroy Israel.
The ideology is the same. The willingness to kill civilians is the same. The goal is the same.
When you support Hamas, you’re supporting the same people that wanted to assassinate Taylor Swift and her fans.
fuck #hamas (many #palestinians agree)
fuck #netanyahu (many #israelis agree)
the problem:
someone speaks against hamas, and someone else confuses that with speaking against palestinians and supporting netanyahu
or:
someone speaks against netanyahu, and someone else confuses that with speaking against israelis and supporting hamas
but:
some *do* speak against israelis or palestinians
*nobody* can attack palestinians, israelis, #muslims, or #jews
(1/3)
There’s an inconvenient truth and hole in the argument that Palestinians do not support Hamas @benroyce.
Anticipating some pushback, so saving some time here. If Palestinians cannot govern themselves, then they shouldn’t have a country. If they can, then they have to own their problems.
@briannawu is right here.
https://www.axios.com/2024/08/06/hamas-names-political-leader-yahya-sinwar
a people should always govern themselves
period
that there exist parasitical entities like hamas who push mass murder on others as a dynamic for control, is an argument against hamas, *not* against palestinians
i mean, you could use your own logic against israelis with netanyahu
or americans with trump
or russians with putin
or venezuelans with maduro
etc
my point is:
do not confuse the parasite with the people
The question is not what people *should* do. The question is, what *is* happening in Palestine? What *was* happening on October 6th in Palestine?
Were the Palestinians ruling themselves or not? And how does one explain these poll results and square it with the future?
A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up even in the devastated Gaza Strip. The survey published Wednesday also reflected an overwhelming rejection of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas, with nearly 90% saying he must resign. The findings signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza. Washington has called for the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank-based autonomy government currently led by Abbas, to eventually assume control of Gaza and run both territories as a precursor to Palestinian statehood. The pollster said that with findings indicating a further erosion of the PA’s legitimacy, the default option for post-war Gaza is likely an open-ended Israeli occupation.
I don't give a shit. A people rule themselves, period. The only way to peace is a two state solution. Hard stop
Whatever problems that exist preventing that must be overcome. And I will never buy the argument that the parasites that foment violence to remain in power are the same as the people. Whether putin, maduro, hamas, whomever. How much support these cancers have in their societies is besides the point. The people will figure out their parasites are their downfall
90% of support sure doesn’t seem like a parasitical force.
But what I am seeing here is that you are saying that Palestine cannot govern itself. The parasites have taken over.
Is that really what you want to say here?
I think the very definition of a state and self-governance is agency.
And I think you’re saying that the Palestinian people have no agency. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth.)
I can’t get behind that. I’m in the same boat as @briannawu.
"And I think you’re saying that the Palestinian people have no agency"
Then you haven't listened to anything I said at all
@benroyce @briannawu
Well if they have agency, then they wanted the war and started the war and should therefore expect consequences.
It seems to me that well meaning people have stretched the suffering of the Palestinian people for a long time by excusing away bad behavior.
Have the Israelis been fair? No. But life isn’t fair.
palestinians will indeed suffer as long as they grant any legitimacy to hamas. just as long as israelis will suffer as long as they grant any legitimacy to netanyahu
but none of this leads to denying the existence of palestinians as a people (or israelis as a people as others will say)
if you do that, you are not merely observing "life isn't fair," you're abandoning morality
you're not responsible for what is happening, but you are bound by morality to reject it
@benroyce @briannawu
I am a European descendent, living in a country, on a continent, in a hemisphere, that was literally founded on genocide and slavery.
I like to point out that the founding of Israel in 1948 (76 years ago) is a similar timeframe to the largest mass hanging on US territory (86 years).
This happened in May of 2024.
The item known as “the Mankato Hanging Rope” was used in the hanging of Wicanhpi Wastedanpi (also known as Chaske), one of the 38 Dakota men hanged on Dec. 26, 1862, following the U.S.-Dakota War of 1862.
and this is true for the entire history of the world
every nation on earth has genocides and mass murder at some point in their past based on ethnic hatreds, religious disputes, etc
obviously, we both agree this is wrong
but also obviously, "well it happened once, so we have to let it happen again" has nothing to do with morality
ps:
if harris and walz win, the governor of minnesota will be a native american woman, the first in our nation, peggy flanagan
she is a citizen of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe
*that* is the future of palestine and israel
wiping out all the native americans and denying them their existence is an evil immoral *past*
and it is just as immoral and evil to suppose what is happening with israel v palestine is "acceptable" because "life isn't fair"
bullshit
@benroyce @briannawu
I don’t know. Maybe if people want war and promote war and make war, we should let them.
That appears to be the case, by the evidence presented, by the support and will and the agency of the Palestinian people. They support Hamas. Hamas started the war.
This is the result. It’s horrible. But this is where they are today.
the moral stand is to oppose oct 7
and oppose what israel is doing in gaza now
when you pick sides, you give up your morality
so stop picking sides
side with morality instead
@benroyce @briannawu
I’ll ask a couple of tough questions then.
First, what is the proper amount of force to get the hostages back? If your son or daughter or partner were captured by Hamas, how much force would you want the state to expend to get them back?
If your neighborhood was attacked by a foreign country, how far back would you want the hostile forces to be pushed?
Given Palestinian support for Hamas, isn’t it likely that another war will break out?
any vile thing is possible at any time by any group of deranged assholes
the error is replying to them in a fashion that proves you're just as much of a deranged asshole
this doesn't mean you don't hunt down terrorist mass murderers and bring them to justice or respond to them in kind when they raise their gun at you
but it does mean you don't hold an entirety of people responsible for what their parasites do
because then another oct 7 will happen
when i was born palestinians and israelis were murdering each other
i'm an old man and palestinians and israelis are still murdering each other
the point is to *get out* of that dynamic, not continue to feed it
I’m sorry you think I’m a “deranged asshole”. I do not think that of you at all and I would not call you any names. I respect your opinions.
As I said before, I appreciate this conversation. And I thank you for it.
I also identify with the “these people have been killing each other my whole life” and recoil in the horror of it all.
The place where we differ is the way out. I believe this problem has festered and prolonging it simply promotes more human suffering.
'I’m sorry you think I’m a “deranged asshole”'
are you in hamas?
i was calling hamas deranged assholes, not you
my judgment here of you is you're accepting what is happening because "life is not fair"
no, you owe it to your sense of morality to condemn hamas, and netanyahu, *in the name of* israelis and palestinians
and i think you can do that
Sorry. I misread.
How do you answer the statement that 100% of American Palestinians live on stolen land?
Knowing that you too live on stolen land, why should your morality be better than any other morality?
Why do you lionize the suffering of Palestinians over that of Native Americans? How did you make that moral choice?
very easily:
something bad happening before does not justify something bad happening now
"well, i knew this guy who raped a woman once, and he got away with it. so this guy right here, he raped a woman, but i'm going to look the other way because life's not fair"
no
you owe it to your sense of morality to condemn the rapist today
because rape happened before has absolutely zero bearing on your clear moral responsibility *today*
the past is *the past*
@benroyce @briannawu
Native Americans here in Minnesota are suffering today from the sins of the past. Those hurts are very real. (The same should be said about African Americans.)
Condemning the criminal for past crimes would be to condemn all Americans. Are you signing over your deed and you forgot to mention it here?
your problem is you see every conflict as one of permanence
violence upon our fellow human must fall to the past
it cannot be leveraged for continued violence
i noticed you did not respond to my comment pointing out that if harris and walz win, the governor of minnesota will be peggy flanagan, a citizen of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe
*that* is the future of palestine and israel
*if* we let past violence be the past
you need to do that
There’s too many threads and I forgot to respond to my happiness in Patty Flanagan potentially becoming my governor. It directly relates to our discussion and she’s definitely at top of mind in our discussion.
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/13/changemakers-peggy-flanagan-minnesotas-lieutenant-governor
Peggy Flanagan, 41, is the first Indigenous person elected to executive office in Minnesota’s 162-year history. She started her political career in 2004, being elected to the Minneapolis School Board, before becoming a state representative and sharing a ticket with Gov. Tim Walz in 2018.
then you understand white settler killing native american is the past
that we have moved beyond violence
you must view what is happening in israel and palestine the same way
and use the *deemphasis* of violence, rather than acceptance of it, at as the basis for your views on the topic
Question: what is the responsibility of Palestinians in deemphasizing violence? What is the Palestinian role in October 7th?
And again - apologies for not keeping up on all the threads. You type faster than me.
i've said it time and time again so i am not sure why you keep asking the same question over and over again:
we deemphasize violence
period
the palestinian
the israeli
me and you
if someone somewhere does *not*, now, or in the past, this does not magically mean we accept the violence
so all i ask of you is to say: it's wrong when hamas does it. it's wrong when netanyahu does it. and we don't just throw up our hands go "life isn't fair"
make the moral stand my friend
i have no idea what your point is
you keep pointing out past violence as some sort of rationale for accepting continuing violence
we just went through a massive amount of tearing down of statues of past criminals of racism and violence in this country
so all this image tells me is we have another statue to tear down
not in a million years does its existence magically justify continued violence
right
we're a violent species
it will always be with us
the best we can do is minimize it
we start doing that by standing against it
not merely going "life isn't fair" and looking away
if there is any value from our convo, it is that you will start denouncing hamas and netanyahu, both
There are still land disputes happening here in Minnesota as of right now.
A bill at the Capitol that would transfer ownership of some state-owned forest lands to the White Earth Band of Ojibwe has sparked outcry from non-Native neighbors, and prompted calls for dialogue to help ease the conflict.
so what?
are we committing genocide on native americans, right now?
there is no more *violence*
we can have all the legal disputes we want. but we can't murder each other, is the point
And why should we respect Palestinian history and not Native American history? How far back should we go?
I might be a “deranged asshole” but your morality seems a little wobbly to me.
i responded to you, and you ignored it, that if harris and walz win, the governor of minnesota will be a native american woman, the first in our nation, peggy flanagan
she is a citizen of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe
that is the future of palestine and israel if israelis and palestinians can forget the *violence* of the past, instead of continuing to feed it
nothing i have said is remotely wobbly and i did not call you a "deranged asshole"
@benroyce @briannawu
You say my morality is compromised? I’d say that yes it is.
However, I also like to point out that 100% of American Palestinians live on stolen land. And so I have a hard time with their arguments. A really hard time.
People in America lecturing other nations about genocide is a little weird. It shows a lack of self reflection.
And here’s the problem. I’m not sure the world is worse off for it. And I don’t say that lightly.
Does that make sense?
no it doesn't make any sense
you're saying bad things happened before, so we have to accept bad things now
I support all Native American rights and I support all acknowledgment of past treaties and I oppose anyone who deemphasizes Native American contributions to the USA
@benroyce @briannawu
It seems to me that the Palestinians support Hamas (by over 90%). Hamas has installed the architect of October 7th as their new leader.
How could you possibly say that Palestinians aren’t governing themselves at this point? I really don’t understand.
and germans supported hitler
therefore we deny the existence of germany?
and russians support putin
therefore we deny the existence of russia?
etc, etc:
100% pure unadulterated bullshit
deny the parasite
do not deny the people
ever
this is a rock solid moral principle you are arguing against here, and you really need to rethink the dangerous path you are on and what your thoughts are "justifying"
I want to add that I think what is happening in Palestine is a travesty. But if you are going to continuously make war with a stronger neighbor, then…the situation is not going to get better.
And so I ask again - do Palestinians own their aggression *OR* do they not govern themselves? Either answer is not good for a future Palestinian homeland.
Here is the dynamic:
1. A parasite's legitimacy decays
2. Declare war on a perceived enemy
3. Legitimacy replenished, because now the people are fighting for their life
This is true of Hamas
This is true of Netanyahu
This is true of Putin
This is true of Maduro
Etc, etc
Do not buy into this dynamic
Reject the parasite, do not reject the people
I keep coming back to this point you are making: Palestinians have no agency and no responsibility for this war.
Sorry, we disagree on this point.
War sucks. Many people get hurt. There might be huge portions of the population that didn’t want the war - especially now. But before the war, that wasn’t the case.
That’s the inconvenient truth.
My friend, if an occupying military force turns a city into an open air prison and slowly murders the inhabitants, no matter in what country, or what caste, they will create a resistance army, that is human nature.
You can call them terrorists, rebels, self defense militia, resistance, that just depends on your own perspective. Israel is too deluded with "superiority" to see that.
*I am NOT saying violence against civilians is OK.
@Captain_Jack_Sparrow @benroyce @briannawu
So you are defending October 7 and violence?
Have you been to the West Bank? I do not think your characterization of pre-October 7 West Bank is accurate.
And in terms of the inevitability of war - then you are saying this is what Palestinians chose and I say, “Ok. Now you own it.”
@Captain_Jack_Sparrow @benroyce @briannawu
And I would add, Jack, that you are kind of a war monger. That isn’t a good look.
You seem to be incapable of seeing a different perspective, other than your own narrow biased viewpoint. And you apear to have no knowledge of Palestine prior to Oct 7th 2023.
For your information, I don't support or condone violence and I don't support illegal occupations. You seem fine with it however, as long as it is done by "your" side
@rob @benroyce @briannawu
You seem to be incapable of seeing a different perspective, other than your own narrow biased viewpoint. And you apear to have no knowledge of Palestine prior to Oct 7th 2023.
For your information, I don't support or condone violence and I don't support illegal occupations. You seem fine with it however, as long as it is done by "your" side
The sooner you realize that it’s people like you @Captain_Jack_Sparrow who excuse away violence, are prolonging human misery.
Plus there are people on this thread who claim to boost LGBTQ+ voices. And they ignore the way these people are treated in Palestine (I’m looking at your @benroyce ).
Shameful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
You are very simple and binary thinking
You seem to be incapable of seeing a different perspective, other than your own narrow biased viewpoint. And you apear to have no knowledge of Palestine prior to Oct 7th 2023.
For your information, I don't support or condone violence and I don't support illegal occupations. You seem fine with it however, as long as it is done by "your" side
Brianna Wu
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES
Rob
Peter Newland
Jonathan Kamens 86 47
Captain Jack Sparrow