Dear Swifties:
The radical theocratic terrorists that targeted the Taylor Swift concert are functionally the same people that want to destroy Israel.
The ideology is the same. The willingness to kill civilians is the same. The goal is the same.
When you support Hamas, you’re supporting the same people that wanted to assassinate Taylor Swift and her fans.
fuck #hamas (many #palestinians agree)
fuck #netanyahu (many #israelis agree)
the problem:
someone speaks against hamas, and someone else confuses that with speaking against palestinians and supporting netanyahu
or:
someone speaks against netanyahu, and someone else confuses that with speaking against israelis and supporting hamas
but:
some *do* speak against israelis or palestinians
*nobody* can attack palestinians, israelis, #muslims, or #jews
(1/3)
There’s an inconvenient truth and hole in the argument that Palestinians do not support Hamas @benroyce.
Anticipating some pushback, so saving some time here. If Palestinians cannot govern themselves, then they shouldn’t have a country. If they can, then they have to own their problems.
@briannawu is right here.
https://www.axios.com/2024/08/06/hamas-names-political-leader-yahya-sinwar
a people should always govern themselves
period
that there exist parasitical entities like hamas who push mass murder on others as a dynamic for control, is an argument against hamas, *not* against palestinians
i mean, you could use your own logic against israelis with netanyahu
or americans with trump
or russians with putin
or venezuelans with maduro
etc
my point is:
do not confuse the parasite with the people
The question is not what people *should* do. The question is, what *is* happening in Palestine? What *was* happening on October 6th in Palestine?
Were the Palestinians ruling themselves or not? And how does one explain these poll results and square it with the future?
A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up even in the devastated Gaza Strip. The survey published Wednesday also reflected an overwhelming rejection of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas, with nearly 90% saying he must resign. The findings signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza. Washington has called for the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank-based autonomy government currently led by Abbas, to eventually assume control of Gaza and run both territories as a precursor to Palestinian statehood. The pollster said that with findings indicating a further erosion of the PA’s legitimacy, the default option for post-war Gaza is likely an open-ended Israeli occupation.
I don't give a shit. A people rule themselves, period. The only way to peace is a two state solution. Hard stop
Whatever problems that exist preventing that must be overcome. And I will never buy the argument that the parasites that foment violence to remain in power are the same as the people. Whether putin, maduro, hamas, whomever. How much support these cancers have in their societies is besides the point. The people will figure out their parasites are their downfall
90% of support sure doesn’t seem like a parasitical force.
But what I am seeing here is that you are saying that Palestine cannot govern itself. The parasites have taken over.
Is that really what you want to say here?
I think the very definition of a state and self-governance is agency.
And I think you’re saying that the Palestinian people have no agency. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth.)
I can’t get behind that. I’m in the same boat as @briannawu.
"And I think you’re saying that the Palestinian people have no agency"
Then you haven't listened to anything I said at all
@benroyce @briannawu
Well if they have agency, then they wanted the war and started the war and should therefore expect consequences.
It seems to me that well meaning people have stretched the suffering of the Palestinian people for a long time by excusing away bad behavior.
Have the Israelis been fair? No. But life isn’t fair.
palestinians will indeed suffer as long as they grant any legitimacy to hamas. just as long as israelis will suffer as long as they grant any legitimacy to netanyahu
but none of this leads to denying the existence of palestinians as a people (or israelis as a people as others will say)
if you do that, you are not merely observing "life isn't fair," you're abandoning morality
you're not responsible for what is happening, but you are bound by morality to reject it
@benroyce @briannawu
I am a European descendent, living in a country, on a continent, in a hemisphere, that was literally founded on genocide and slavery.
I like to point out that the founding of Israel in 1948 (76 years ago) is a similar timeframe to the largest mass hanging on US territory (86 years).
This happened in May of 2024.
The item known as “the Mankato Hanging Rope” was used in the hanging of Wicanhpi Wastedanpi (also known as Chaske), one of the 38 Dakota men hanged on Dec. 26, 1862, following the U.S.-Dakota War of 1862.
and this is true for the entire history of the world
every nation on earth has genocides and mass murder at some point in their past based on ethnic hatreds, religious disputes, etc
obviously, we both agree this is wrong
but also obviously, "well it happened once, so we have to let it happen again" has nothing to do with morality
@benroyce @briannawu
I don’t know. Maybe if people want war and promote war and make war, we should let them.
That appears to be the case, by the evidence presented, by the support and will and the agency of the Palestinian people. They support Hamas. Hamas started the war.
This is the result. It’s horrible. But this is where they are today.
the moral stand is to oppose oct 7
and oppose what israel is doing in gaza now
when you pick sides, you give up your morality
so stop picking sides
side with morality instead
How do you answer the statement that 100% of American Palestinians live on stolen land?
Knowing that you too live on stolen land, why should your morality be better than any other morality?
Why do you lionize the suffering of Palestinians over that of Native Americans? How did you make that moral choice?
very easily:
something bad happening before does not justify something bad happening now
"well, i knew this guy who raped a woman once, and he got away with it. so this guy right here, he raped a woman, but i'm going to look the other way because life's not fair"
no
you owe it to your sense of morality to condemn the rapist today
because rape happened before has absolutely zero bearing on your clear moral responsibility *today*
the past is *the past*
@benroyce @briannawu
Native Americans here in Minnesota are suffering today from the sins of the past. Those hurts are very real. (The same should be said about African Americans.)
Condemning the criminal for past crimes would be to condemn all Americans. Are you signing over your deed and you forgot to mention it here?
your problem is you see every conflict as one of permanence
violence upon our fellow human must fall to the past
it cannot be leveraged for continued violence
i noticed you did not respond to my comment pointing out that if harris and walz win, the governor of minnesota will be peggy flanagan, a citizen of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe
*that* is the future of palestine and israel
*if* we let past violence be the past
you need to do that
There’s too many threads and I forgot to respond to my happiness in Patty Flanagan potentially becoming my governor. It directly relates to our discussion and she’s definitely at top of mind in our discussion.
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/11/13/changemakers-peggy-flanagan-minnesotas-lieutenant-governor
Peggy Flanagan, 41, is the first Indigenous person elected to executive office in Minnesota’s 162-year history. She started her political career in 2004, being elected to the Minneapolis School Board, before becoming a state representative and sharing a ticket with Gov. Tim Walz in 2018.
then you understand white settler killing native american is the past
that we have moved beyond violence
you must view what is happening in israel and palestine the same way
and use the *deemphasis* of violence, rather than acceptance of it, at as the basis for your views on the topic
Question: what is the responsibility of Palestinians in deemphasizing violence? What is the Palestinian role in October 7th?
And again - apologies for not keeping up on all the threads. You type faster than me.
i've said it time and time again so i am not sure why you keep asking the same question over and over again:
we deemphasize violence
period
the palestinian
the israeli
me and you
if someone somewhere does *not*, now, or in the past, this does not magically mean we accept the violence
so all i ask of you is to say: it's wrong when hamas does it. it's wrong when netanyahu does it. and we don't just throw up our hands go "life isn't fair"
make the moral stand my friend
@benroyce @briannawu
I ask the question repeatedly because Palestinians have chosen the violent path. After this entire horrible no good war they continue to select the most hostile and violent actors as their leaders.
And America has meddled in Palestinian elections to deemphasize violence, to a detrimental effect. (You are aware of this, no?)
And they never stop fighting and will never forget. Even after the war is lost.
This gives back to my agency problem. They actually want war.
yes
many palestinians want to kill all israelis
many israelis want to kill all palestinians
and? everyone knows this. why do you think that changes a single damn thing on your moral responsibility to condemn violence by *anyone* rather than going "oh well" and letting the shit continue to fester and it's just more and more violence?
@benroyce @briannawu
This is our disagreement.
Palestinians have to have agency. They need a different model rather than war. They have to choose that. I, as a Minnesotan, cannot and will not choose it for them.
If they choose war - as we have both pointed out in this conversation- then they need to fight the war. I’m sad. But all evidence points to Palestinians supporting a violent means to achieving their goals. And it just isn’t going to work for them. It isn’t working for them.
you're exasperating me
i'm not sure if you just like arguing or what
they don't have agency dude
"In December 2022, Benjamin Netanyahu returned as Prime Minister of Israel, forming the most right-wing government in Israel's history. Netanyahu's coalition partners rejected the two-state solution."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
do you understand the nature of the problem now?
if you support the two state solution, we're good
then we can talk about agency
if not... oh boy
the palestinians don't have any israelis in the governing bodies of a palestinian state they are denied?
ok
i have no idea what your point is
you keep pointing out past violence as some sort of rationale for accepting continuing violence
we just went through a massive amount of tearing down of statues of past criminals of racism and violence in this country
so all this image tells me is we have another statue to tear down
not in a million years does its existence magically justify continued violence
right
we're a violent species
it will always be with us
the best we can do is minimize it
we start doing that by standing against it
not merely going "life isn't fair" and looking away
if there is any value from our convo, it is that you will start denouncing hamas and netanyahu, both
There are still land disputes happening here in Minnesota as of right now.
A bill at the Capitol that would transfer ownership of some state-owned forest lands to the White Earth Band of Ojibwe has sparked outcry from non-Native neighbors, and prompted calls for dialogue to help ease the conflict.
so what?
are we committing genocide on native americans, right now?
there is no more *violence*
we can have all the legal disputes we want. but we can't murder each other, is the point
of course
people are suffering from the sins of our fathers and mothers in every nation
and?
i'm really trying to struggle with your point here
i believe we're talking about palestinians murdering israelis and israelis murdering palestinians. and you continue to endlessly point out some horrible shit from the past
do you understand the difference between acknowledging the past, honoring it
and getting stuck in it?
we move on, to better
that is the real lesson of the past
@benroyce @briannawu
It is a lesson the Palestinians need to learn.
Lecturing them doesn’t help. Meddling doesn’t help. Evacuating them doesn’t help.
Sometimes people need to learn things the hard way.
if you deny palestinians statehood, establishing yourself as their false master, the dynamic generated is not one of independent agency anymore
do you see that?
i am culpable for what i do as a free man
am i culpable for what i do when you say you own me and act like you do?
"Sometimes people need to learn things the hard way" is what a slaveowner says to the humans he falsely considers his property
it is not how a free person talks to or about other free people
they have more agency than slaves, but less agency than a free nation
palestine deserves to be a free nation
do you agree or disagree with that
if you disagree, there will be more violence
if you agree, then we can both see the way to violence fading away in the levant
the violence must end
@benroyce @briannawu
As you have probably noted, I have said, “either they don’t have agency and people without agency cannot be a nation” or “ they do have agency and have chosen to fight a war that they cannot win and should be responsible for that war.” You have chosen a 3rd path, for which I do not agree.
I also don’t know how you can predict the end of violence with any degree of certainty one way or another.
then you're part of the problem
you should stop writing thank yous to me for speaking politely with you because i no longer desire to speak politely with you
they don't have agency because they are *denied* it
and you absolutely do get less violence when a people are free in their own nation, with their own agency
that you deny
unfollowed
i will no speak no more in this thread
and i doubt your intentions on this topic and i consider your words immoral
goodbye
i lied, i'll say one more thing:
you cannot deny a people their free agency and then hold to them the standards of a free people with free agency
that makes me angry
and i welcome speaking to you and following you again when you see the only path for reduction in violence here is a two state solution
i liked our chat as it was polite and we worked through the topic well
but it has to end when you don't apply a coherent moral standard in your words
you *must* do that
@benroyce @briannawu
Palestinians could have completely shut down Israel by simply striking since so many Israelis depended on their labor and trade. They would have captured the sympathy of the world.
But that’s not the way they chose to go. And so now here we are, people on the same side of the political spectrum, arguing over their fate. The “violence” has spilled into our conversation.
Things were better on October 6. Palestinians chose - long before October 6 - to take this road.
Mr. Royce I respect your opinions and we disagree here. I’ll give you the last word, but I again want to thank you for the opportunity to discuss this issue.
We may disagree, but I understand your points. Thank you for giving me your time. I’ve got to go do something else now. 🤓
And why should we respect Palestinian history and not Native American history? How far back should we go?
I might be a “deranged asshole” but your morality seems a little wobbly to me.
i responded to you, and you ignored it, that if harris and walz win, the governor of minnesota will be a native american woman, the first in our nation, peggy flanagan
she is a citizen of the White Earth Band of Ojibwe
that is the future of palestine and israel if israelis and palestinians can forget the *violence* of the past, instead of continuing to feed it
nothing i have said is remotely wobbly and i did not call you a "deranged asshole"
Brianna Wu
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES
Rob
