Randahl Fink

On all the Mastodon statistics sites, Mastodon is bleeding active users.

Examples:

Picture 1: https://mastodon.fediverse.observer/stats

Picture 2: https://fedidb.org/software/mastodon

I suspect this is due to Mark Zuckerberg embracing the ideas of the Fediverse and giving every Instagram user a Threads account that he controls.

Mastodon performs better, is more open, has better app choice, and will never have ads. Threads has critical mass.

The world will be far better if Mastodon wins, but right now Mastodon is losing.

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Aug 3, 2024 at 5:48amIvory for iOS
Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@randahl Mastodon has also some serious issues. Like depending on the instance, you may or may not see all the replies to a thread.

That's a massive oversight.

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024

@kypeli if you are on a malfunctioning instance, why do you not switch?

I am on the main instance and it has become rock solid.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@randahl Is my own instance malfunctioning you think?

It's just how the ActivityPub protocol works as it cannot know all the other instances in the fediverse.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@randahl And what you are saying about being on the main instance is basically that the federated nature of the Fediverse does not work and we have to move to main instances.

So we are back to Twitter and Threads.

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024
@kypeli not necessarily. I think many instances work. The main instance was just an example.
Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@randahl It depends on how active they are meaning how many users they have meaning how much traffic they get.

They know only of the content and replies of all the messages they receive.

That's why me, on my single user instance, I don't see many of the replies to messages that have never entered my instance before someone I know interacts with it.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024
@randahl This is not an issue of the instance or the user. But the very foundation how the ActiivityPub protocol works, which is why by the definition, this is a subpar experience.
Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024
@randahl Which is why I am by no means surprised that people are looking for a more solid option, which is Threads. It gets all the benefits you mention on being on a big instance and the openness of ActivityPub.
Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024
@kypeli I have never experienced anything like that. And I have been quite active here since late 2022.
Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@randahl Have you been on low-traffic or single user instances at some point?

Instances can subscribe to "firehose" feeds of larger instances so they get extra content just in case anyone needs it at some point. But that's just a workaround to the flaws of ActivityPub.

Show threadШуроAug 3, 2024

@randahl @kypeli It happens and yes, it is by design.

Basically it works like email - you see all comments that are sent to you but if you are not the author and see someone's else post usually you don't see all the comments from other instances. It is not a big problem though.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@shuro @randahl Thanks for the clarification.

Just curious though. Why don't you think it's a big issue?

For me it was kinda the good thing about Twitter to see some random post or discussion and being able to see all of it.

Show threadШуроAug 3, 2024

@randahl @kypeli It can be seen as a bit annoying but it is not that big of an issue.

If you are the author you'll see all comments to your posts. Also you see all comments if they are made by your contacts (regardless to whom) and all comments made from/to your instance. This is why users of huge instances rarely notice it. Also you'll see comments your contacts already interacted with.

This adds additional value to boosting/resharing - you literally provide visibility to the content you consider valuable. Also it helps to reduce spam and toxicity - everyone can run their instance and join the network but if a spammer or a troll from malicious instance starts leaving comments on Randahl posts for example they won't immediately spread to the entire audience. However someone interesting will get reach because people will interact and create more and more visibility.

Also it has technical benefits - some instances are small, some are private. To see all comments everywhere they'd have to federate everything which would create a lot of load and be very expensive.

I am not saying it is perfect but it is another way and it has some benefits too.

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024

@shuro one important benefit is system redundancy.

X can crash and become fully unavailable, as has happened on occasion.

I do not think we will see that with Mastodon. If one node goes down, others continue.
@kypeli

Show threadШуроAug 3, 2024

@randahl @kypeli You and me are a good example how this works by the way. My server is small, your server is personal. However we federated to each other when it mattered even though we are not familiar on the Fediverse.

But you likely wouldn't want to get all posts or comments in the world on your node and run a server cluster enough to power a small accounting company just in case you'll want to read one of them sometime :)

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@shuro @randahl That's true, I would not :) That's why I don't have the firehose of extra feeds enabled in my instance.

But I would hope that the ActvitityPub protocol would be working so that if I am interested in some thread, it would allow the instance to fetch on-demand all the messages to that thread.

Show threadnaught101Aug 3, 2024

@kypeli @randahl

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. It's that federation doesn't work well below some critical inter-server interaction threshold. So single-user instances are probably always going to struggle, but small-medium instances from 30 to a few hundred active users should work reasonably well.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@naught101 @randahl Yep, you are probably right. That's the nature of disturbed systems. The whole "run your own instance" doesn't work in practice though.

Larger or the main instances are a better option for the users.

But I'd still argue that this is a critical flaw in how the Fediverse works. As your experience depends on where you are. This is not an issue on single instance services (well they have multiple servers in the backend) like Threads.

Show threadMartijn VosAug 3, 2024

@kypeli @randahl

But will moving to Threads get you all responses? Or just those from your own instance, and it pays to be on a big instance?

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@mcv @randahl I am not sure if I understand you completely.

But what I mainly meant is that if you stay inside the Threads ecosystem of messages, you definitely get all the replies.

As for two-way Fediverse integration from Threads, I don't know. I am not eligible for the Fediverse integration yet.

Show threadMartijn VosAug 3, 2024

@kypeli @randahl

But wasn't Fediverse integration the whole point of Threads? It's basically just a big for-profit fedi instance, isn't it?

The big problem is that you don't always see all responses from other instances, and that problem is worse if you're on a small instance, and somewhat mitigated when you're on a large one.

Although from my perspective (from Friendica), the Fediverse seems to work quite well.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024

@mcv @randahl Of course I cannot go inside Marc's head, but somehow I doubt the point of Threads was the integration to Fediverse. More of a necessary evil since he is using the ActivityPub protocol they'll just do it anyway.

If I had to guess, the point was to get people from Twitter and make a better experience so they can show ads.

Show threadJohan PaulAug 3, 2024
@mcv @randahl And what you said about mitigating the issue by being on large instance speaks about the core issue of the Fediverse; for it to work and be truly open and democratic (?) it shouldn't matter on what kind or sized instance you are on.
Show threadMastodon's Billionaire OwnerAug 3, 2024

@randahl Zuck is in the "attract users" phase at threads. Enshittification inevitably awaits, but could take a while...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

Enshittification - Wikipedia

Show threadParade du Grotesque 💀Aug 3, 2024

@randahl

I am going to say something lame but...

- People leaving Mastodon for Threads is not a bad thing, it's a user choice, and there are some good reasons to do that.

- I suspect many people leaving will eventually come back for the reasons you mention (better apps, no advertising, etc).

- I also suspect some people cannot be bothered with the pros and cons of the fediverse: they just want to post stuff and get responses. No judgement in that, they are better off on threads.

Show threadThibaultmol 🌈Aug 3, 2024

@randahl ...
"Mark Zuckerberg taking the Fediverse source code and giving every Instagram user a Threads account that he controls."
that's not a thing... there's no fediverse source code

what are you even saying...

Show threadgullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Aug 3, 2024
@randahl It’s not losing. It is not getting people who wouldn’t post here anyway. Nothing has to be a constant growth curve
Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024

@gullevek sure, but I hope Mastodon becomes the dominant platform, so American billionaires do not control the algorithm which decides what content the majority of people see.

For that to happen, Mastodon has to grow.

Show threadgullevek ☢️ 🇯🇵Aug 3, 2024
@randahl As long there is something where I don’t have to listen to American bullshit 24x7 it’s a win for me! And I doubt it will ever be big. Simple because the masses want entertainment and mastodon will never cater to that. Mastodon is like IRC channels of the past.
Show threadChristopher GiffardAug 3, 2024
@randahl The shrinking server count has me suspecting measurement error. What was the measurement methodology here? Could this not be driven by islandisation created by instance blocks or migration to niche instances that might have greatly limited the ways they federate.
Show threadJakubAug 3, 2024

@randahl tbh, I really like mastodon but it not diverse enough. All posts trending here are far left. Especially political/pro-communism stuff. I consider myself to be on the left side but when I hear that communism is good and capitalism is bad I just want to delete my account and never confess I had an account here…

The lack of diversity of opinion and the fact that no one calls out communist bullshit really pushes people away. It wasn’t like that when I joined 2 years ago.

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024

@anonimowy Your feed is built by you. What you see in your feed is based on who you follow. If you do not want to see pro communism stuff, follow someone else.

You are currently following 77 people. I follow 5000. My feed is much more diverse than you describe, so I believe you just need to follow more people.

Show threadmaegulAug 3, 2024

@randahl

Yep. Threads sucked the oxygen out of alternative social media momentum.

Same thing is happening on BlueSky. The numbers seem to show the same dynamic, and they are basically not growing at all despite having investment and trying hard etc.

As far as the fediverse is concerned. I don’t think it was ready. The whole instances thing is just bad UX. No mobile identity makes it worse. And decentralisation without more is in many ways a bad form of social media (eg BIPOC issues).

Show threadThe Animal and the MachineAug 3, 2024

@randahl
Fantastic data and good alarm calling thank you!

I find it interesting but not concerning. Things like this are a reality correction over desire and choice. Mastodon just needs to continue to hold the course of improvement, especially in supporting diversity.

Show threadThibaultmol 🌈Aug 3, 2024

@randahl no offense but when i look at the graph on the right.. i'm not seeing mastodon lose. I'm seeing a high influx of users because of the twitter exodus and that graph slowly stabilizing.

Is Mastodon/fedi going to take over the world? GOD NO, of course not.

But the fact that the graph has stabilized is really impressive!

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024

@thibaultmol that is a good point.

But I personally hope Mastodon will grow, and since Threads is growing rapidly, and Mastodon is bleeding at least some users still, Mark Zuckerberg is currently successful in creating a new commercial reality, where he can dictate what content people see.

I want Mastodon to beat Threads for the sake of democracy. This is not happening at the moment.

Show threadThibaultmol 🌈Aug 3, 2024

@randahl personally I don't view Threads as something new.
Threads is just a text-mode product of instagram.

I don't think i'm pessimistic but I don't think there's a world in which Fediverse becomes bigger than Threads or Instagram or anything like that. It'd be cool, but it's not realistic.

I don't focus on spreading Fedi/masto to the masses, I just tell friends about it and give them a guided tour and explain how it works.

Slowly it'll grow, and that's fine

Show threadRandahl FinkAug 3, 2024
@thibaultmol I do too. But the question remains: Why are we not growing?
Show threadШуроAug 3, 2024

@thibaultmol @randahl > Why are we not growing?

Everyone is here already :)

Serious answer: people come and go and normally these fluctuations are not really visible. Fediverse isn't advertising much compared to commercial competitors and the network effect isn't working yet. Major arrivals occur when something happens and then the most of new users slowly leave until some remain who really like it here.

Show threadahistorical immaterialistAug 3, 2024
@randahl does it matter, though? I thought we had all learned by now that single massive social networks with every single person on them actually turn out to be horrible. Infinite growth is nothing to aim for in itself. Sometimes things can just equilibrate to the right size, and it's fine.
Show threadbazil ⏚Aug 3, 2024
@randahl Threads is already garbage! Nobody wants that on Mastodon.
Let Threads keep all its crap... We breathe in the meantime on Mastodon.
Often it's better to grow at a slower but qualitative pace.
Show threadGrantAug 3, 2024

@randahl

Think of it like music. Pop music has a huge amount of listeners all the other genre are tiny by comparison. Pop is all about money, the others are all about music. However only exceptional musicians stand the test of time. The pop-junk just fades away.

Show threadWebZiineAug 3, 2024
@randahl I just made this new account this morning. Then I couldn't log in. Now it's working again...
Show threadTHIS ACCOUNT HAS MOVEDAug 3, 2024
@randahl why shop downtown when you can go to the mall?
Show threadTim RichardsAug 3, 2024
@randahl @naught101 I will never switch to an algorithm-only platform. So I'm here for the long haul, at least.
Show threadEllenMarch2Aug 3, 2024
@randahl ohno
Show threadFifiSchAug 4, 2024

@randahl I don't think Threads is that big of a reason. I think it's more because:
1) Nostr. Libertarian-minded users are going there
2) Bluesky. The algorithmic choice is admittedly pretty fun

Both platforms seem like things are moving somewhere. Fediverse and especially mastodonoworld seems pretty hostile to change. Also it's maybe too serious.

Show threadEva-clearlyAug 5, 2024
@randahl I’m fed up with bots hitting hashtags that I follow here. A favourite feature of the Fediverse being exploited by thugs 🧐
Show threadRandahl FinkAug 5, 2024
@edupont_clearly does reporting the bots not work?
Show threadEva-clearlyAug 5, 2024
@randahl How? I just mute/block, and when volume grows, I stop following the tag …