MattJul 29, 2024
Kate Kirby
We desperately need to start a Slow Software movement. High quality, intentionally designed, low defect software done at a quarter of the pace for the same price. Because we've been destroying the mental health of developers for the last quarter century, and what do we have to show for it but a giant mess?
Jul 3, 2024 at 10:44pmWeb
Show threadAmgineJul 4, 2024

@uncanny_kate

This sounds BSD-ish. (Except that OpenDarwin section.)

Show threadsynlogicJul 4, 2024
@uncanny_kate and by "free range" devs. I dont want to be cooped up in a little cage all day
Show thread🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑Jul 4, 2024
@uncanny_kate
I'm not disagreeing with the need, but if it's done at a quarter of the pace, why wouldn't it cost four times as much?
Show threadTom Bellin Jul 4, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate presumably because part of the longer time scale is ample amounts of free time.
Show threadaardvarkJul 14, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate less churn, less triage, less bug fixing, easier modification, easier handoff to new team members
Show threadang_mo_uncleJul 14, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate plenty of reasons. Most importantly, work efficiency is not static. Say in 8 hours of work per day you get 8 units of work done. Then it's pretty safe to assume that working 10 hours would not yield 10 units, but less. And at some point, additional work hours might cause negative units BC. of errors due to overworking/attrition, ...
Show thread🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑Jul 14, 2024
@ang_mo_uncle @uncanny_kate It's been shown that the value of additional work beyond 8 hours goes negative very quickly. If you do it rarely, the value might actually be nine or more, but when done frequently...
Show threadGaëtan PerraultJul 14, 2024

@brouhaha @uncanny_kate

It would not cost four times as much because people would be willing to pay full price for a stable 25% instead of an unstable 100%.

But that's why this would be a "movement". It requires multiple involved parties to change their expectations of each other. To agree to different terms.

It's also why this hasn't really happened. Most people want to pay $0 for software and services. Full price, 25% of price, ... All irrelevant if people think the value is $0.

Show threadMarc EtienneJul 14, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate because you save more on less bug fixes and overtime.
Show threadEaster Benny 🐇🥚Jul 14, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate Low quality software ends up taking longer as bugfixes for production interrupt the flow of new features. Fast software is often tactically designed and needs progressively more time for rework in order to make additions and changes. It's a false economy.
Show thread🇺🇦 haxadecimal 🚫👑Jul 15, 2024
@feijoa @uncanny_kate Sorry, I don't have enough time to write the software badly!
Show threadJeff GriggAug 18, 2024

@brouhaha @feijoa @uncanny_kate

Yes. Our experience has been that when we slow down and do quality work, we solve the business problems faster.

Cost and time are substantially reduced. Often by several times.

"Slow is Smooth.
Smooth is Fast."

Show threaddatenwolfJul 15, 2024

@brouhaha @uncanny_kate

Two words: Technical debt

Technical debt doesn't only incur an architectural cost. It quite literally translated into monetary loss. A more deliberate approach, that might cost more upfront will likely save you a multitude in the long run.

Show threadDavid Chisnall (*Now with 50% more sarcasm!*)Jul 16, 2024

@brouhaha @uncanny_kate It would probably be slower to ship something, but faster to ship something of decent quality.

A lot of the push for development models that reached their nadir with Facebook’s ‘move fast and break things’ came from chasing first-mover advantage. If you are the first company shipping a widget then there’s a benefit in shipping fast because you have the entire market to yourself for longer (in some cases, there’s a bigger second-mover advantage because you spend all of the effort required to convince people they want widgets and then the second mover enters the market without that cost and avoiding your mistakes). If you’re in a market where there are established players, it doesn’t matter nearly as much. You can do very well shipping new features more slowly than the competition at a higher quality.

Show threadJoe Cooper 🇺🇦 🍉Jul 25, 2024
@brouhaha @uncanny_kate rushed software is buggy software. Those bugs may not make up the 4x difference, but it's a factor.
Show threadSolarbird Jul 4, 2024
@uncanny_kate it would be nice not to have burnt out and got RSI
Show threadorkodenJul 4, 2024
@uncanny_kate move slow and fix things
Show threadSalusaSecondusJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate I write cryptographic code. That's the only type of software I build.
Show threadMax KaehnJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate That’d be a lovely way to work part-time in retirement.
Show threadaardvarkJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate go slow to go smooth. Go smooth to go fast.
Show threadSteven WoolgarJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate @aardvark engineers know this. They aren’t in charge.
Show threadaardvarkJul 14, 2024
@woolie @uncanny_kate they’re told to “Fix quality! Nerd Harder!”
Show threadmirabilosJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate also, less is often more. For security, don’t add on "solutions". Take away code, dependencies, frameworks. Much more realiable, and easier to mentally model.
Show threadPēteris KrišjānisJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate this. Majority of software needs solid 1.0 release, and then leave it be, sans small fixes once a year.
Desktop apps within certain categories might only exception.
Show threadLord Caramac the Clueless, KSCJul 14, 2024
@peteriskrisjanis @uncanny_kate Depending on the software, it might need fixes more often due to the ongoing discovery of exploits. But you don't need to add features all the time, you can have version 1.3.12, 1.3.13, 1.3.14... 1.3.23... 1.3.78 if necessary, before ever releasing 1.4.0, let alone 2.0.0 (which might take many years). "Never change a running system" sounds far better than "move fast and break things" IMHO.
Show threadXQWVJul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate I think the VMS operating system was built that way.
I wasn't personally involved in its development, but I very much enjoyed using it.

I'd support a Slow Software Movement.

Show threadhuxley(fur) / Laelia 🔜 Furcationland DeadDogJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate that's what we do at Mixxx but all we get is "why does it take two years between releases"
Show threadSusanna the Artist 🌻Jul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate h/t https://medium.com/@johnthomas518
John Thomas – Medium

Read writing from John Thomas on Medium. Teacher. Writer. Every day, John Thomas and thousands of other voices read, write, and share important stories on Medium.

Medium
Show threadSimon DassowJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate We might even be able to call it engineering again when done right.
Show threadllewellyJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate
in addition to the giant mess, several fascist billionaires. I mean they would have been rich anyway, but maybe not quite so many billions.
Show threadenmodo ⚛️ 🧬 🇺🇦 🍉Jul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate
I've been told all my company projects have to use Java in the future not because it is the best language for the job, but because AI tooling to detect and correct defects works best with it. That sounds like the American approach to healthcare - focus on expensive and profitable treatment of health issues vs. preventative measures that reduce the chance of us having "defects" in the first place.
@Binder
Show threadK. N. Brindle (they/them)Jul 14, 2024

@enmodo @uncanny_kate @Binder

There are days when I miss development, but then there are stories like this that make me so glad I left this profession.

Show threaddazfuller Jul 14, 2024
@enmodo @uncanny_kate @Binder that is the dumbest thing I’ve heard about since the Lattice post on AI employee records.
Show threadAmeliaJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate Happy to say this already exists: https://starshipgender.com/disability-driven-development/index.html
Disability-Driven Development

Show threadPoul-Henning KampJul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate

Can I interest you in Varnish HTTP Cache ?

That has been a project goal for us since 2006

http://varnish-cache.org/docs/trunk/phk/thatslow.html

Going fast slowly — Varnish version trunk documentation

Show threadGerard Cunningham ✒️Jul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate

What you need is a Union.

Show threadrory k.Jul 15, 2024
@faduda
i'd be very curious to hear if you know of any one actually existing? i thought about it too two years ago after a big burnout as a freelance programmer.
Show threadGerard Cunningham ✒️Jul 15, 2024
@rory_k Unions never exist until someone sets them up. Maybe you're that person?
That said, it depends on your jurisdiction. I'm in Ireland, where you're probably looking at CWU and SIPTU as potentials. In the UK, there's Unite.
US I'm not familiar with, but possibles include CWA, PPMW, OPEIU.
A search brings up techworkerscoalition.org
Show threadrory k.Jul 15, 2024
@faduda currently in Berlin and went to the opening event of ver.di's freelancer section of their union (ver.di is the biggest union in Germany) last summer. i was not impressed, too focused on workers who are forced to open a one-person biz in order to get a job contract (which is a terrible situation and good they have covered by a union!). there's a tech worker group also in Berlin but also not focused on freelancers. well, something to keep plotting on! (:
Show threadGerard Cunningham ✒️Jul 15, 2024
@rory_k
Unions only change when the members change their course. It's not a Them, it's an Us.
Show threadocdtrekkieJul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate IMHO the core problem was the "innovation" of evergreen software updates. As soon as it became okay to just ship every six weeks regardless of the current state, quality was guaranteed to fall off a cliff.

Meanwhile software shipped before game consoles had Internet are still playable forty years later.

Show threadCwd o Seiber-ysbridionJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate its very unfortunately a "who will pay for this?" because even radical software groups ive been more focused on adding features than getting stuff right
Show threadKestralJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate @aks The idea behind Gemini, but as software pracrise. I love this.
Show threadluna Jul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate slime rancher 2 devs have been proudly progressing slowly and refer to themselves as a no-crunch studio on the steam page
Show threadAndrea Franceschini 🏴‍☠️Jul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate I would have a polite chat with the fine folks at the Agile movement, not because they fucked but because they did not stop an entire industry of complete and utter bullshit from taking over software development in the name of velocity and shit. Fuck them Agile™ consultants.
Show threadCassandrichJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate Not just a quarter. We need an understanding that, without urgent need to fill, software should be something that takes years to go from "people with a particular interest in this new thing try out using it" to even ~optional~ mainstream deployment, and decades to something you can expect society at large to tolerate a dependency upon.
Show threadLisPiJul 14, 2024
@dalias @uncanny_kate Or in other words, remove the capitalist distortion and it mostly snaps back into place on its own.
Show threadThe Witch of Crow BriarJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate We used to do it this way, until the agile manifesto and its golden rule, “thou shalt not criticize agile”.
Show threadThe Penguin of EvilJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate We have mountains of academic evidence that using the right tools like formal methods and validation produces software just as fast as the current "throw shit at the wall" model of software design. It doesn't need to be a slow software movement, more of a "we invented the ebike for software, why are you still running up hills" model.
Show threadDaniel BarlowJul 14, 2024
@etchedpixels @uncanny_kate "throw shit at the wall" is still faster if you don't care whether it works or not, which is important in a lot of industries
Show threadThe Penguin of EvilJul 14, 2024
@dan @uncanny_kate Alas you have a point. Liability law is still going to be needed to fix the mess, but at least we are finally on the way to reality even if it's taken proxy World War 3 to make politicians notice the bad smell from the software corner.
Show threadGaëtan PerraultJul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate I 100% back this movement.

But I think the movement needs to start on the purchasing side. If we're not buying and paying for this software, it's not going to exist. And I mean that seriously, we need to get off the "free" plan.

I'm happy to support both Mastodon and my host with monthly fees. But that is surprisingly rare. Back in the Twitter migration days, people were surprised by requests for donations and the lack of infinite Dev budgets.

Show threadjon rJul 14, 2024

@uncanny_kate
Full ack!

http://jon.federated.wiki/slow-technology.html

Slow Technology

Show threadeightyccJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate Couldn't agree with you more. I've always used the "get it right the first time" approach which requires lavishing time on the code throughout the development process. Then again, I'm talking MMU code here, so there's not much margin for error. On the other hand, I think taking more time than is absolutely necessary on some PHP monstrosity amounts to developer abuse.
Show threadCharles Choi 최 민수Jul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate save for the same price (why cheaper?), the unrealistic expectations of velocity has created a culture of unforced errors and thoughtless yolo decisions. The line of "fast, cheap, reliable: pick two" still holds.
Show threadGEM is truly truly outrageousJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate there's no money in that :(
Show threadBoredomFestivalJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate sign me up, please
Show threadjnpnJul 14, 2024
@uncanny_kate I also believe that we're not directing brain power where it matters. Chasing funding money deadlines and KPIs is not a net benefit for society
Show threadbignoseJul 14, 2024

This is what we need for sure, @uncanny_kate

When you lay it out like that, though, it is clear that this can't be done by corporations with "growth leading to monopoly rents" as an imperative.

We need to stop begging them to act against their legally mandated shareholder interests, and instead demand collective funding from the people's purse, for making and maintaining user-respecting software essential to our modern lives.