Daring Fireball
New Cars in the EU Now Equipped With Nagging Speed Limiters
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2024/07/09/intelligent-speed-nagging
New Cars in the EU Now Equipped With Nagging Speed Limiters

Link to: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/new-cars-fitted-automatic-speed-limiters-this-week/

Daring Fireball
Jul 9, 2024 at 3:57pmDF Tootbot
Show threadPaul GraveJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball @gruber It always irked me that e-bikes had speed governors whilst cars didn’t. Unlike almost everything else EU regulators have done recently, this is something that seems sensible to me. I’m wondering how many lives it will save.
In the UK, if you’re caught speeding you can choose to pay a fine or attend a speed awareness course. To have technology help me avoid speeding is a welcome feature.
Show threadDelricJul 9, 2024
@paulgrav @daringfireball @gruber it’s a welcome feature? couldn’t you just, you know, lift up on the gas if you don’t like the tickets?
Show threadPaul GraveJul 9, 2024
@delric @daringfireball @gruber Not sure about other countries but there are frequent limit changes in the UK. Before you know it, you’re unintentionally doing 40 in a 30 zone. Speed assistance in that instance is a personal convenience. If this feature can reduce deaths by 20%, then the argument to not have ISA would have to be pretty compelling.
Show threadDelricJul 10, 2024
@paulgrav @daringfireball @gruber ah the “If it saves just one life…” argument. You know what would save more than 20%? If it made you go even slower. Or even not at all. But no, we accept the causality cost of convenient things like auto travel, so the argument crumbles
Show threadPaul GraveJul 10, 2024
@delric It’s not one life, the expectation is that there will be 20% fewer deaths. Is your argument really that because society accepts some fatalities that there should be no further improvements in road safety to lower fatalities?
Show threadAdam RussellJul 13, 2024
@paulgrav @delric @daringfireball @gruber I’ve driven a car that shows the speed limit on the dash for years (a Volvo XC40, using both GPS and road sign recognition). It’s wrong so very rarely that it is very notable in the odd event that it is.
Show threadAdam RussellJul 13, 2024
@paulgrav @delric @daringfireball @gruber also… self driving cars say hi.
Show threadJonathan GulbrandsenJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball from actually driving a car with this “feature”, I cannot overstate how annoying it really is. They also didn’t make it smart in any way, so if I overshoot on 110km/h highway it complains immediately at 112km/h. It’s idiotic and I’m sure will cause more accidents due to angry drivers trying to find where in menu to disable because they forgot to turn off before driving off, thus distracting them.
Show threadMieszko ŚlusarczykJul 9, 2024
@jonathangulbrandsen @daringfireball I’ve got a speeding ticket in Germany for driving 105 in a 100 limited section of the autobahn
Show threadJonathan GulbrandsenJul 9, 2024
@spitfire @daringfireball but those are progressive , right? So if you had done 150, much bigger fine. This is not that. It bothers you exactly as much if 1 km over as 50km over.
Show threadKoochulainnJul 9, 2024
@jonathangulbrandsen @daringfireball Sounds like a lot of hassle instead of just staying under the speed limit
Show threadMagnus AhltorpJul 9, 2024
@jonathangulbrandsen @daringfireball Why can’t you just drive slower than the speed limit? It’s a *maximum* speed, not a minimum.
Show threadTom_PaganoJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Maybe this makes more sense outside of our US culture lens. It is weird that we have speed limit signs (theoretically a law) that we have a whole culture of skirting and laws limiting enforcement. I weirdly appreciated in Europe that I got an automated ticket- my car traveled from point A to point B in less than the expected time- no argument, no pull over, no fuss, just here is your penalty for breaking the law, and I knew I deserved it.
Show threadConorJul 9, 2024
@tompagano @daringfireball nope, no, nah-ah that is egregious. An officer can show up in court that witnessed my speed or don’t bother with a ticket.
Show threadCarlos FonsecaJul 9, 2024

@daringfireball if people driving cars could be trusted to keep within decent speed limits and didn't keep crashing into everything, including other people, maybe this wasn't needed.

"Road traffic crashes are the leading cause of death for individuals ages 5-29." https://www.cdc.gov/transportation-safety/global/

Global Road Safety

Learn more about global road safety.

Transportation Safety
Show threadConorJul 9, 2024
@carlosefonseca @daringfireball accidents are caused by a) drivers going above the speed limit b) drivers going below the speed limit c) sleepy or distracted driving d) road conditions e) driving under the influence.
Show threadOdinJul 9, 2024
@conorporter @carlosefonseca @daringfireball And where possible, more should be done to reduce how many accidents are caused by those other issues as well
Show threadNick HeerJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball An IIHS survey found it would be surprisingly accepted in the U.S., at least theoretically: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/most-drivers-would-be-ok-with-anti-speeding-tech-in-vehicles-survey-shows
Most drivers would be OK with anti-speeding tech in vehicles, survey shows

Contrary to the conventional wisdom, more than 60% of drivers would accept intelligent speed assistance that provides a warning when they exceed the posted limit, a new IIHS survey shows.

IIHS-HLDI crash testing and highway safety
Show threadBuckJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball I wish we had those in the US too. People drive like maniacs and it's dangerous to everyone else, especially cyclists and pedestrians.
Show threadChristopherJul 9, 2024
@buck @daringfireball Well said! 👏
Show threadieeurJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball You mean like this in California?
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ca-car-speed-governors-19471021.php
As others have said, it can be very easy to unintentionally go over the limit without realising it on urban streets. I’ve also turned on the warning system on my car.
Show threadSalvoJul 9, 2024

@ieeur @daringfireball there is also a lot of peer pressure to speed from other road users.

The moron tailgating you will need to accept that you are literally unable to speed.

Many new Cars already have rear collision prevention; they automatically flash brake lamps if the car behind is too close.
Morons will need to accept that the driver may not be brake-checking them, it could be the car.

Show threadPedro FernandesJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball All is fine... EU Big Brother is just watching us…
Show threadPedro FernandesJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball The EU - Increasingly bureaucratic, authoritarian and dangerously enforcing surveillance
Show threadMartinJul 11, 2024
@pfernandes @daringfireball What‘s the point of speed limits if they aren‘t enforced? (Which this beeper isn‘t even doing, it just nags)
Show threadPaulJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Ugh, just like we have to disable Lane Keep Assist in the EU each time you get in the car.
Show threadMonkeybreadSoftwareJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Well, my car has such a beeper and I put it on 10 km/h over. Great to warn me if I am too fast and avoid getting speed tickets. We'll see how this mandatory system will be received.
Show threadGeoffaireyJul 9, 2024

@daringfireball Speeding is a leading cause of road traffic collisions, far too many people flout the law and get away with it, as they think that there are no consequences.

This is very much a soft measure to encourage compliance.

Back in the 80s in the UK many people pushed back on using seat belts, but they’ve saved so many lives over the intervening 40 years, and in 40 years I’ve no doubt that this will be seen in a similar light

Show threadKristopher BrowneJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball I’m fine with the idea, most cars are not designed/maintained well enough for extreme speeds, and most drivers can’t actually ascertain what’s safe for given conditions. My question is will the DMA require those automakers to allow third party software to control it.
Show threadKevinJul 9, 2024

@daringfireball Quite surprised by your perspective tbh! Obviously it will depend on implementation but the idea of preventing cars from going too fast when dangerous should be welcomed?

Speeding is the leading cause of car crashes, and fatalities will only get worse as cars get bigger (SUVs) and heavier (EVs) for everyone on the road.

I hope this gets implemented correctly and adopted wide like seatbelts, airbags, automated emergency braking and lane assist technologies.

Show threadBuckJul 9, 2024
@kevinbongart @daringfireball I'm really surprised by it also. I'm guessing basically all Auto safety features had similar types of push back when proposed.. American DNA is just so over pumped with "my freedom" juice *(I say this ****as**** an American)*
Show threadKevinJul 9, 2024
@buck American here as well but I now live in France. Whenever I'm back in the US I'm shocked by the size, weight and speed of cars, but unfortunately not surprised by the growing rate of pedestrian fatalities (when it's going down in Europe)
Show threadBuckJul 9, 2024
@kevinbongart It's insane ... I'm in Idaho and it's like a monster truck rally down the main streets, and everyone is going *at least* 10mph over in 35mph zones ... So huge trucks going nearly 50 mph, with drivers distracted by phone usage, and folks are supposed to want to bike and walk alongside that here. I quit biking on the roads altogether as it's a death sentence eventually.
Show threadMartin the paranoid androidJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball @gruber On the flip side, car makers are *actually* competing on how to turn this shit off the quickest.
Show threadOdinJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Hopefully the system works as intended and reduces the number of accidents that result in serious injury or death
Show threadJeroenJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball I hope my next car will have the option to automatically max out at the speed limits on the roads I’ll be driving. Driving in Europe is madness. The rules and (constant change in) speed limits are made for robots, not humans. Driving sucks and I keep getting speed tickets. I want to go from A to B as easily as possible, without having to pay extra for speeding.
Show threadPatrickJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Even though I don’t agree with everything our government does, at least we can pass new laws, and our politicians don’t belong in a nursing home. Our democracy isn’t at serious risk either. Not sure if a US citizen is in the position to make fun of our politics.
Show threadMarkus👨🏻‍💻Jul 9, 2024

@daringfireball every modern middle class car has this since … i don‘t know … 15 years? The only difference: most limiters are opt-in, in future they will be opt-out.

Tbh, i like that because it’s really annoying to turn it on manually every time.

I also understand that Americans feel patronized when you read something like that. But don‘t worry, you don‘t need that anyway since everyone in the US is driving like my grandpa …

Regards from Germany

Show threadHarold LeewisJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball It is absolutely annoying, but it’s NOT a speed limiter, it’s a beep or a vibration in the pedal when you go over the speed limit. It does not brake for you or prevent you from going over the limit.
Show threadGeoffaireyJul 9, 2024
@hsl @daringfireball No, it throttles the engine instead
Show threadHarold LeewisJul 9, 2024
@Geoffairey @daringfireball Not true at all, preventing to accelerate beyond the speed limit is not a requirement. https://etsc.eu/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/
Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA) – ETSC

Show threadGeoffaireyJul 9, 2024
@hsl It doesn’t prevent you from going beyond the speed limit, it encourages you to slow down when you go far too fast.
Show threadHarold LeewisJul 9, 2024

@Geoffairey “encourages" by playing a couple of beeps... that's all it is. The article where Gruber refers to contains false information, cars are not required to reduce engine power.

My new car just plays 3 beeps when you surpass the speed limit by 3km/h for longer than 2 seconds, and when you start the car there is a button in the screen to disable it.

Show threadGeoffaireyJul 9, 2024
@hsl Manufacturers can choose from 4 optionshow they Encourage compliance with the speed limit. I suspect that over time this will change as the idea becomes more and more accepted.
Show threadDavid M. Levinson ⁂Jul 9, 2024
@daringfireball you talk about walking everywhere in Philly on your show, do you not see speeding and the problems it creates. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/speed-campaign-speeding-fatalities-14-year-high
Almost One-Third of Traffic Fatalities Are Speed-Related Crashes | NHTSA

NHTSA
Show threadCharlieGJul 9, 2024

@Transportist @daringfireball I had the same thought. A person who enjoys the walkability of an old city — somewhat unusual in the California-dominated tech press — complaining about ensuring cars don’t speed.

The better answer to the “nagging” criticism is not to give people the option — why allow people to choose to be able to drive too fast? (Unless it’s a reliability issue.)

Show threadDavid M. Levinson ⁂Jul 10, 2024
@Charles @daringfireball the risk that there are inconsistencies in the GPS maps and posted speed limits remains. And there is always some imagined emergency scenario (going to hospital, saving the city from terrorists, etc. ) that has to accounted for.
Show threadCharlieGJul 10, 2024
@Transportist @daringfireball I can live with the former. The latter I guess is an issue to some extent (and I’ve driven my daughter to hospital at great speed, so one I have some sympathy for!), but I’m not at all sure it outweighs the bigger issue.
Show threadDavid M. Levinson ⁂Jul 10, 2024
@daringfireball see https://mastodon.online/@BrentToderian/112760604619952880
Brent Toderian (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image IMPORTANT STUDY: “On average, the implementation of 30 km/h speed limits in European cities demonstrated a 23%, 37%, and 38% reduction in road crashes, fatalities, and injuries respectively. Lower speed limits also yielded environmental benefits, with emissions decreasing on average by 18%, and fuel consumption by 7%, indicating enhanced fuel efficiency and reduced environmental impact.” https://www.nrso.ntua.gr/review-of-city-wide-30-kmh-speed-limit-benefits-in-europe-may-2024/

Mastodon
Show threadJohn GruberJul 10, 2024

@Transportist My opinions on this are not in contradiction at all. I strongly favor pedestrian-oriented street and intersection design, speed bumps, low speed limits in cities, congestion pricing in big cities, and the repurposing of street parking for other uses. I'd also be far less opposed to a mandate that cars simply cannot exceed posted speed limits, especially within cities.

This EU law just annoys drivers, though. It doesn't prevent drivers from going as fast as the car will go.

Show threadDavid M. Levinson ⁂Jul 10, 2024
@gruber so do I read you correctly that you are in favor of (or just less opposed to) mandatory speed limiters in cars? (With or without emergency override?)
Show threadDatalessJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball I wonder why you’re reporting on life-saving laws on a continent where you don’t live instead of the impending fascist takeover of the country where you do.
Show threadSteve BarnesJul 10, 2024

@Dataless –

"Instead of"?

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/11/07/trump-dark-plans

Trump’s Dark Plans for a Second Term

Link to: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/11/05/trump-revenge-second-term/

Daring Fireball
Show threadDatalessJul 10, 2024

@Starfia Yes, instead of.

That article was published eight months ago.

Show threadSteve BarnesJul 10, 2024

@Dataless –

Yes, that particular article; others were more recent (in case you didn't know, which evidently you didn't). In any case, the "takeover" has been looming for nine years, and the vehicle law is today's news. Faulting a tech writer for covering today's tech news doesn't quite strike me as… well, anything.

Show threadGlobaltomJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball Obvious solution: don't speed.
Show threadMichaelJul 9, 2024
@daringfireball "Nonstop pointless nagging and annoyance." – Think of the implementation what you will, but there’s clearly a point to this. It’s literally trying to keep people from being killed.
Show threadJohn GruberJul 10, 2024
@mi No it isn't. If that's the goal then the cars should be prevented from exceeding the posted speed limit. I'd be far less opposed to that, but it would obviously generate more outrage from the public. Such a law would have an obvious benefit: new cars could not exceed speed limits. But this law doesn't do that. It just presents the *intention* of "doing something" rather than actually doing something, annoying drivers with beeps each time they get in the car until they turn it off again.
Show threadJimmy CallinJul 10, 2024
@gruber @mi If new cars couldn’t exceed the speed limit while old cars can, that would be catastrophic for safety.
Show threadMichaelJul 10, 2024

@gruber apparently manufactures have four different options to choose from, including limiting the speed or an acoustic warning. I was under the impression the speed limit was the only one.

Regardless, the goal clearly _is_ to prevent speeding and all it‘s negative consequences, I‘m assuming this is just a first step. But even if it wasn’t, adding friction to behavior you want to discourage can definitely have an effect.