Accidental Tech Podcast593: Not a European Lawyer
https://atp.fm/593
The EU giveth, and Apple taketh away.
MarkV@atpfm Living in the EU and listening to the episode. I think the question @siracusa asked "why did they take so long to respond to the steering provision" and the question @marcoarment asked "why didn't they just write X into the DMA" both have the same answer: the EU Commission typically doesn't decide on things with a few bureaucrats sitting in a room alone, there is a LOT of back-and-forth with different stakeholders in the market through industry focus groups (inc. devs), which takes time.
@atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment Also re: the question "Would Apple self-regulating have done prevented the DMA" - I don't think so. Many people in the US see the DMA as directly targeted at Apple, but the EU's whole reason for existence is protecting the Single Market and making sure it is well regulated to enable competition. They regulated rail, energy, lightbulbs and bananas. They would have regulated digital apps and services at some point no matter what, Apple didn't trigger that at all.
John Siracusa@markv …but if Apple had self-regulated, a) the DMA might have been written differently in light of how Apple had chosen to open up its platform on its own, and b) Apple’s self-regulation might have meant that it was already in compliance with what the EC passed later.
Gregnee@Gregnee You’re “not so sure,” but the OP said there’s “no way.” And like I said, either way, Apple could have gotten a head start on all this, and done it uniformly and worldwide.
@siracusa I’m not European. Despite writing a college Econ paper on the EC, I don’t follow them closely enough to have that level of certainty. Given how poorly they’ve regulated web cookies, I’m not optimistic that this would have turned out any differently.
@Gregnee @siracusa I know cookies and the silly popup banners are the thing everyone keeps pointing to to say how bad EU legislation can be. But by and large, GDPR did what it was supposed to do: define what kind of data companies are allowed to store on people and what their responsibilities are in terms of keeping that data safe and up to date.
Yes it can be a hassle, but the hassle means companies default to storing only the data they really need for the job. It works pretty well imho.
@siracusa Agree on both points, especially the second. But there’s been sentiment in various podcasts that interprets the DMA as being targeted at Apple, which I think is a misreading.
The EU has always been against closed vertical integration in the Single Market (see also: Fourth Rail Package, Third Energy Package for reference). This is more at odds with Apple’s “whole widget” mindset and less with Google and Microsoft, but that doesn’t mean it was written in response to Apple specifically.
illustro@markv @siracusa I think the article linked by @ridogi here: https://mastodon.social/@ridogi/112690752890830323 sums things up perfectly.
In the EU producing regulation is more like a group discussion with the teacher than an edict from on high. I work in the insurance industry in the EU. We are (necessarily) heavily regulated both nationally and at the EU level. All changes to regulations are flagged multiple years in advance with pre-implementation discussions *with* the regulators.
1/
@markv @siracusa @ridogi the DMA wasn't written in a vacuum. There was an initial proposal made about it in 2020. Two years later it was passed and entered into force in November 2022, and was effective from May 2023. I guarantee before there was a proposal there were attempts to engage with relevant parties.
That's at least two years Apple had to engage and effect change in the regulation, and a further year during which they had the opportunity to push for necessary amendments.
2/
@markv @siracusa @ridogi Apple chose, instead of engagement, to say "we don't need to change and you are wrong to try make us change". That is on Apple, not the EC.
Fundamentally the EU is protective of its market as a whole not individual companies. It doesn't make regulation to spite non-EU companies or to favour EU companies. See insurance regulation, the bulk of the insurers to who this regulation applies are European.
EU company preference is effected through trade negotiations. 3/3
@illustro @siracusa @ridogi I work in the EU chemical industry and have seen very similar things. Current ongoing industry working groups are about regulations expected for 2027/2028. There are working groups on every piece of regulation from chemical safety (REACH) to carbon tax (eg CBAM) and sustainability (Green Deal). This includes customers, suppliers, academics, etc.
My guess is Apple saw the DMA as a threat and used all their lobbying power to try stopping it instead of shaping it.
Torstein@markv @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss ie preparing their case thoroughly. and with the slippery snake that apple is sadly turning out to be - through malicious compliance - thoroughly is exactly what the EC needs to be.
Michael@atpfm RE: John’s comments @ 29:00:
I completely agree that the system Apple has proposed is odd and definitely convoluted…
…but as a person who is interested in cars but not a “car person”, I 100% view my car as an appliance, and have exactly zero attachment to the design choices made by my car’s manufacturer. I would have no qualms enabling a setting to overwrite their notoriously bad UI’s.
Janne Ojaniemi@michaelrjohnson @atpfm yeah, am not really a hardcore car person, although I have preference for certain brand (Volkswagen). I think I would prefer CarPlay everywhere. Give the customers the option, if they really want it, they would prefer your cars over competitors. If they don’t want it, they could just not use it. It would be a competitive advantage. And if I were driving several cars, would my CarPlay-setup follow me from car to car? No need to re-learn ui in every car.
Arnd Layer@Janne_O @michaelrjohnson @atpfm
What I’d like to - but never will - see is this:
There is a place in every car, where the owner can install a box for their navigation and entertainment system. You can buy such a box with your car, but don’t have to. The connection to your car is standardized, e.g. HDMI or USB C. Sort of like the standardized replaceable radios from 30 years ago.
All the security relevant interactions with car hardware could be controlled via certified apps.
What I’d like to - but never will - see is this:
There is a place in every car, where the owner can install a box for their navigation and entertainment system. You can buy such a box with your car, but don’t have to. The connection to your car is standardized, e.g. HDMI or USB C. Sort of like the standardized replaceable radios from 30 years ago.
All the security relevant interactions with car hardware could be controlled via certified apps.
We could upgrade the non-driving brains of our cars every few years. They wouldn’t deprecate as fast and the car makers could focus on what they are good at.
@Janne_O @michaelrjohnson There would still be a need to relearn some stuff, because the UI wouldn’t be exactly identical between cars (manufacturers can customize, which is part of Apple’s pitch). And on top of that, there’s the “punch-though” UI for every feature not implemented on CarPlay (or that the manufacturer just doesn’t want to do in CarPlay).
@siracusa @Janne_O No arguments there — I think their proposal for 2.0 is fraught and likely DOA — but in terms of being an owner wanting the car’s brand integrity in the UI to remain intact, I couldn’t care less.
I may very well be in the minority in viewing my car as an appliance, but I think not. I think it’s another manifestation of the collective opinion towards GM abandoning CarPlay: whatever the manufacturer puts together is less important than my phone integration.
Marina Epelman@atpfm I see the exchange where Marco claimed that he watched a 1951 cartoon “when it first came out” didn’t make the edit :-) 🦆🐇
Jan Lehnardt 
@marinaepelman hah, I caught that too ;D
VolineCome on you guys. iExit is sitting right there!
Oliver Thomas
Trent Shell
Eric deRuiter@atpfm I learned a lot from this link about the EU.
dmitriid (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] Because you, like Gruber, have no idea what the EU is, and what it does, and come it it with an extremely limited view of "whatever a supranational US corporation does is good actually". This is a good overview of what people are missing: https://www.baldurbjarnason.com/2024/facing-reality-in-the-eu-and-tech/
Work Less@atpfm member special covering each host’s car trip packing. 🤩
Also, having packed for many weekends that included various combinations of a large, three-burner gas stove, multiple canopies, picnic tables, food for 40, a full camp kitchen, a six foot wooden sled, etc … you can massively up your cargo game on any vehicle with those $15/day 4x8 trailers from U-Haul.
The only downside is they fit tires with speed ratings around 60mph.
@atpfm
1. 00.1% of Apple users actually give a shite re lawsuits or how they’re perceived.
2. YYD result of +15% and market cap over $3trillion =‘s poor Tim Cook leadership??
3. Apple cares very little re European markets and nowhere near the amount Marco would have you believe.
4. App devs whinging weekly re App Store commissions makes such a great podcast.
5. Asking Marco for an opinion on App Store regulations is like asking Donald Trump for an unbiased reply on pussy grabbing….
1. 00.1% of Apple users actually give a shite re lawsuits or how they’re perceived.
2. YYD result of +15% and market cap over $3trillion =‘s poor Tim Cook leadership??
3. Apple cares very little re European markets and nowhere near the amount Marco would have you believe.
4. App devs whinging weekly re App Store commissions makes such a great podcast.
5. Asking Marco for an opinion on App Store regulations is like asking Donald Trump for an unbiased reply on pussy grabbing….
Casey Liss
Steven Ringo@atpfm Chinese / SE-Asia car manufacturing is exploding. Hundreds of brands all using the same ugly Roboto-filled Android Automotive UI with little to differentiate them. Have a look at GWM, MG, BYD. All dashboards and infotainment look the same and are terrible. A CarPlay-based alternative would certainly make me look twice at some of these cars.
jramskov@atpfm @caseyliss Car for Erin: I’m surprised she’s not ready for a BEV? Did you/she try the Kia EV9? I haven’t but reviews are good I believe.
Plug-ins: Remember the battery takes space, you will have less storage capacity.
Storage: Check out hitch cargo boxes. Roof boxes are noisy!
Plug-ins: Remember the battery takes space, you will have less storage capacity.
Storage: Check out hitch cargo boxes. Roof boxes are noisy!
LS@atpfm The title should have been "The Humans Will Fade"
Odin@atpfm Hopefully there is some way the EC can clarify things around those features Apple is holding back, because I really struggle to see how a feature on the Mac is affected by the DMA, even if the feature is all about accessing your iPhone.
In that case especially it feels like Apple is just being punitive.
@odin @atpfm one of the gatekeeper designations the EC has made in relation to Apple is that the "AppStore" is a Core Platform service for intermediation: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/gatekeepers_en
That AppStore isn't just on iOS, it's all of Apple's platforms (in part because Apple has designed it as a single system, see iPad apps being submitted once but available on everything but watch and phone)
So the Mac is covered here too re interoperability
gormster@atpfm ugh. Think this episode will be a skip for me.
Nathan King@atpfm Basically, @caseyliss packs as much stuff in his cars as @siracusa packs windows on his desktop.
Trevor Manternach
Marcos Huerta@NathanKing @atpfm I took a family of 4 (one baby) to the beach for a week in an EV6. We had to pack economically, but it was doable! No rooftop storage pod needed.
Joe Welch@NathanKing @atpfm @caseyliss @siracusa even more reason to go electric for that next car because you get a frunk! Imagine having two trunks, Casey! TWO TRUNKS!
@atpfm minivans rule. Literally the most pragmatic class of vehicle for most people. Boggles my mind why they still have a soccer mom stigma that SUVs somehow escaped.
Joe Lion@trentshell @atpfm it’s 2024, and anybody who has a hangup about whatever silly stigma minivans had in the 1990s needs to get over it. Especially if you have multiple small kids and think an SUV is better in any way at all. Moms, dads, whatever - just drive the minivan and make your lives easier
@joelion amen to that.
Allen Shull 
@atpfm I’ve never been as impressed with a vehicle as when I folded down the back seats of my Honda Odyssey, took out the middle seats, and loaded up four sheets of 4x8 drywall. I probably could have fit a dozen more in. Even in a truck, it would have gotten rained on. It also tows our pop-up camper. Vans are fantastic.
@allenshull @atpfm yup, with the middle seats removed and the rear seats folded down, 4 x 8 sheets of plywood or drywall lay completely flat in a Honda Odyssey. The only limit to how much you want to stack in the weight because the rear axles aren’t rated to carry thousands of pounds of wood even though there is space.
Jai@atpfm @caseyliss plugin hybrids are amazing. I’ve had a Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross for 2 years now. It only about 50km battery range (wish it was just a bit more like the newer Outlander) and driven almost 30,000km including 3 long road trips around the north island of NZ. I’ve filled up the 35L fuel tank less than 10 times and saved 1000s of dollars in fuel. An extra 10km battery range would have halved that petrol usages. I’m continually surprised how little distance I drive each day
Chris P@atpfm I wonder if Tim Cook WANTED governments to sue Apple, thinking that it is somehow a badge of honor.
Dominic 🇪🇺 🏳️🌈 🇺🇦@atpfm You talk about Apple launching features in the EU late, even in English-speaking markets or on devices where the language is set to English. Italy only just got Siri on tvOS a year or two ago (don’t remember exactly), even though my devices are all set to English. This announcement of services being delayed does not seem like a material change either way compared to how things have always been.
I ranted about the Siri-on-AppleTV thing more extensively here: https://findthethread.blog/A-Conversation-about-AppleTV/
I ranted about the Siri-on-AppleTV thing more extensively here: https://findthethread.blog/A-Conversation-about-AppleTV/
Erlend@riotnrrd @atpfm Still waiting on word predictions, from iOS 8(!), over here! 🤷🏻♂️
https://mas.to/@havn/112729247124965806
https://mas.to/@havn/112729247124965806
Erlend (@[email protected])
Attached: 1 image @[email protected] Apple: "We are highly motivated to bring new features to every user..." Take a look at this screenshot of the iOS keyboard in my language: Notice anything missing? In iOS 8(!) TEN years ago, Apple launched word predictions. Guess how much I believe Apple... I also think I can serve as a good test for Apple's claim: Norway is _not_ in the EU (I can't download app stores) - so we'll see how many iOS 18 features I get...
Karan J@atpfm if @caseyliss is open to looking at Mazda again the one you should've been looking at is the CX-90, not the CX-9. It's starting from $37k new. Looks the goods. Mazda's interior is basically a copy of Audi's.
Jim Wong@atpfm For what it's worth, as a 16-inch MacBook Pro user who carries his laptop to and from work and travels regularly, I wouldn't mind at all if Apple explored making these systems a bit lighter and thinner if the resulting tradeoffs were acceptable.
My old 2015 15-inch MacBook Pro weighed 4.49 pounds, and my 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro weighed 4.3 pounds.
My new 16-inch M3 Max MacBook Pro weighs 4.8 pounds, which makes for a noticeable difference in day-to-day life, particularly on a plane.
@atpfm Apple: "We are highly motivated to bring new features to every user..."
Take a look at this screenshot of the iOS keyboard in my language: Notice anything missing?
In iOS 8(!) TEN years ago, Apple launched word predictions. Guess how much I believe Apple...
I also think I can serve as a good test for Apple's claim: Norway is _not_ in the EU (I can't download app stores) - so we'll see how many iOS 18 features I get...
@atpfm The Kia EV9 would be a great choice, @caseyliss. I'd at least look at it!
It's reasonably priced, and the electric platform is terrific. (That's really important to look at.) The EV6 and Ioniq 5, on the same platform, looks way better IMO, though. As a European, those are family sized - but America is different I guess. 😅… (1/2)
(And as a Norwegian, where literally 90% of new cars are EVs, I absolutely don't get the aversion to it, hehe. I drove electric to Southern France and back last year, and it's no issue. Really.)
Another thing I would consider: Imagine if you would rent a car the 2% of times you require the most from your car. Which car would you then need for the 98%? You would probably save more than you pay in rent.
(And speaking of mini vans: The VW Buzz is also pretty good!) (2/2)
(But I also liked the last thing you said, @caseyliss: That she deserves whatever car she wants.)
@atpfm classic Marco: “oh, I have soooo much to say about web crawlers…” *cue a conceptually & contextually misguided word soup.
John: “now let me actually explain their use and in 1 sentence…”
John: “now let me actually explain their use and in 1 sentence…”
Greg LloydiExit: name for threatened Apple EU action