Steve Troughton-Smith"We have a number of Apple issues. I find them very serious, I was very surprised that we would have such suspicions of Apple being noncompliant”
"This is not what we expected of such a company”
https://mastodon.social/@macrumors/112640420132181098
Paraphrased: we're not just mad, but we're also disappointed 😛
Me too, EU. Me too.
From later in the interview, specifically re questions on Apple’s Core Technology Fee:
“We have a toolbox of fines, of doubling fines, of potential breakup of companies”
"We have a very strong toolbox to ‘punish’”
…
"I expected [noncompliance] cases… I'm a bit surprised we have so many cases, so soon, and with more in the pipeline”
“Not only will we be enforcing it, but it will be a top priority”
“The thing is that it's difficult to make good legislation, but if it's only on paper, you should have saved yourself the trouble”
"It's only when you enforce that you change the world, because then you change behavior”
dmitriidI wish they had the same approach with GDPR, too. Enforcement is lacking, and the industry is openly laughing in their face
Miguel de Icaza ᯅ🍉@stroughtonsmith @gruber it is difficult because what they want and what they can put “on paper” are different - putting on paper what they want would backfire across various trade agreements.
Uli Kusterer (Not a kitteh)@Migueldeicaza @stroughtonsmith @gruber Can you elaborate? Is "they" the EU? What do they want that they can't put on paper?
@uliwitness @stroughtonsmith @gruber yes. What they can’t put on paper are thing that would go against the wto rules. So they need to dance around the issue.
John Gruber@stroughtonsmith Good luck to the EU breaking up a US company.
Nick Foster@gruber @stroughtonsmith they’re not gonna break it up they’re just gonna fine them
Leon Cowle@nickfoster @gruber @stroughtonsmith I will make a bold prediction here: they might fine Apple, but Apple won’t ever pay the fine (or at most, a minuscule [token] part of the fine) amidst other “agreements” with the EU.
Mieszko Ślusarczyk@leoncowle @nickfoster @gruber @stroughtonsmith I bet that’s what they’re thinking too, but are about to find out otherwise in 3..2..1..;)
@gruber the part that's in the US can stay in the US, but there are some big parts that live in the EU — like the iTunes Store, and Apple's consumer apps. That makes the App Store infrastructure itself a big, juicy EU-based target that would make actual sense to go after, since that's the part of Apple that’s blatantly breaking the laws anyway
Jonathan Clarke@stroughtonsmith @gruber Not to mention what the EU is proposing is what the US should be doing this. Apple is engaging in self-harm here, I love the company and it's products but this App Store stuff has been on the wrong side of what is fair for some time now. In my view, a lot of this is completely avoidable.
@stroughtonsmith What’s your take on the incoming EC regime after the recent elections? Less aggressive, more pro-business? Or no change?
Niléane@gruber @stroughtonsmith The majority in the European Parliament remains largely unchanged
Christof Stadler@gruber @stroughtonsmith Don’t ask. This political trend will cause much worse issues than anti-business legislation.
@didole @stroughtonsmith What I do understand, from my side of the pond, is that the electoral wave was driven by anti-immigration sentiment. But I don't know how that translates regarding business policy.
Alfonso Betancort@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith Wishful thinking non the less. FANG will still be on the hook for anticompetitive practices.
MarkV@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith The incoming coalition will be 90% the same as the existing coalition: centre-right + centre-left + liberals (EPP, S&D, RE). Every comparison with US politics would be flawed, but imagine if the moderate wing of the Dems and the moderate wing of the GOP teamed up for a compromise administration.
There was an anti-immigration surge in the sense that hardline parties like Freedom Caucus and MAGA equivalents got more votes, but not enough to put them in power.
@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith The most likely candidate for president of the European Commission (the executive branch), is the current EC president Von Der Leyen.
The most likely candidate for president of the European Parliament (the legislative branch, so like Speaker of the House) is the current EP president Roberta Metsola.
The big open question is whether VDL will be confirmed by all member states or not (Hungary likes to play hard to get and they can block the process).
@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith Also a question whether VDL includes the Greens in her coalition or not. There was clear voter sentiment that the EU went too far with the Climate agenda in the last administration and they may scale back on that side to give farmers and businesses some leeway.
On that front yes I could see them being more business friendly since there is talk of wanting stronger European companies to compete with China et al. But I don’t think that will impact Apple. /end
Drew McCormack@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith There was a small surge in the far right, but mostly business as usual. If anything, the rising right is isolationist and protectionist, and unlikely to favor multinationals.
@gruber @didole @stroughtonsmith Hey John, just as an FYI follow-up to this: Von Der Leyen was today reconfirmed for a 2nd term as president of the EC. She published her policy guidelines today, which you could see as sort of comparable to a US president’s State of the Union outlining general policy direction.
Doesn’t go super specific, but thought you might be interested nonetheless.
@markv @gruber @didole
relevant:
"We will start by focusing on the
implementation and enforcement of the
digital laws adopted during the last mandate.
Tech giants must assume responsibility for
their enormous systemic power in our society
and economy. We have begun the active
enforcement of the Digital Services Act and
the Digital Markets Act. We will ramp up
and intensify our enforcement in the
coming mandate.”
@gruber the DMA vote wasn't contentious: it was passed by 588 votes to 11.
No matter how the party percentages shift, there's a very clear intent here
Steven Dehandtschutter@gruber very weird way of stating that. Preventing a company from abusing its power is ‘anti-business’? Apple has itself to blame for being in this situation. I love their products, and most people would consider me an Apple fanboy, but the last years I’ve started to feel like the company is just a very beautiful shiny layer of veneer over a pretty rotten core. Also see @ashleygjovik, underpaying women, how they treat their dev community. They sure are losing my respect
Daniel@sdehandt @gruber @ashleygjovik I like how Gruber ignored this comment. He’s an Apple shill through and through.
David Kocher 
@gruber You still fail to understand that the DMA is pro-business. Not for the gatekeeper but the overall market. It has „Market“ in its title.
@davidkocher I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. OpenAI has “open" in their name too.
嗞嗞五花肉@gruber @davidkocher It's going to be "CloseAI" pretty soon I am very sure
Steve Sebban, CSI@stroughtonsmith @gruber And most of Apple’s cash is NOT in the USA. I suspect that lots of it (if not most) is in Ireland & Luxembourg aka EU
Nate Vack 🍴@stroughtonsmith @gruber "Platform owners cannot control content distribution in the EU" seems like it's the intent of the DMA
One way of enforcing it would be to permit *only* third-party app stores in the EU, and sharply limit vendor-installed software.
Safari and Mail and Messages could be installed from an App Store, just like Chrome and WhatsApp. *Should* they, even if it makes the platform technically worse? I don't know.
Charlie Fish@gruber @stroughtonsmith It’s crazy how much the EU is overstepping here. The EU is not the world police.
Let’s also not forget how the EU completely ruined the internet with those cookie request pop-ups all over the web…
Johannes ヨハネス@fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith The EU is neither overstepping nor is it acting like the world police (unlike some other countries). The laws it passes apply in EU countries only.
Also, the EU never forced anyone to use cookie pop-ups. That’s the industry’s reaction to the GDPR regulations, trying to make users accept their horrendous data collection practices.
@johjakob @gruber @stroughtonsmith “The laws it passes apply in EU countries only”
Yet their fines are based on worldwide revenue…
Michael@fishcharlie @johjakob @gruber @stroughtonsmith
Why people hung up on that point. Would it better for you, if the law would say „up to 100 billions in fines“
Each regulator can charge what ever they want.
@el_micha @fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith I agree. And still, Apple could just comply with the law to avoid fines at all.
@fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith
Ah yes. It was the EU breaking it, and not the greedy industry assuming they have the god-given right to all your data.
Harold Leewis@fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith the EU ruined the internet with cookie requests?
If you’re not using cookies for anything fishy for the privacy of your users there is zero reason to show a cookie pop-up.
Christian Sigritz@fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith The EU is NOT forcing cookie pop-ups. It only demands a certain level of privacy and data protection. The pop-ups are only here to make it as hard as possible for site visitors to use that right of privacy.
@csigritz @fishcharlie @stroughtonsmith I don't understand this argument. No, the GDPR does not require cookie consent popovers. But websites in the EU are lousy with cookie consent popovers because that's how companies have chosen to comply. Clearly it's the result of the GDPR that the web is far worse to use in the EU than everywhere else in the free world.
@gruber @fishcharlie @stroughtonsmith Companies could also decide to:
a) do not track users => no popup needed
b) use user-friendly, non-screen-blocking popovers with a clear „deny“ button, which not demand from the user to dive deep into the cookie popup structure. Just make it easy to deny or accept. Should be not too hard to implement.
@gruber @csigritz @fishcharlie @stroughtonsmith This doesn't follow, the web is better because I can use the cookie pop-up to go in and decline a bunch of tracking cookies. That didn't exist before GDPR. Could it be better? Yes I think a decline all button should be mandatory and my response should be remembered forever, I should never have to re-decline. However, at least now I can decline tracking I couldn't before.
@gruber @csigritz @fishcharlie @stroughtonsmith The web is only easier to use in the rest of the world because you can't opt out of tracking at all.
jramskov@fishcharlie @gruber @stroughtonsmith Neither is US&A, yet it acts like it. EU doesn’t force Apple to do anything outside of it, just in the member countries - which it totally has right to do.
aeberbach@gruber @stroughtonsmith super lucky they don’t operate Apple-subsidiary companies all over the EU then!
@gruber @stroughtonsmith They don't need to break it, just kicking it from Ireland and Malta –both, EU members– would enormously raise Apple's worldwide tax. That ought to hurt.
@abetancort @stroughtonsmith Somehow I think the good people of Ireland might object to that.
@gruber @stroughtonsmith Would not bet on that, EU legislative and executive arms are long and work in mysterious ways.
Michael Sliwinski@gruber @stroughtonsmith John, me, and many other Europeans are just disappointed with Apple sticking by the non-compliance and guarding these App Store fees and control and losing their face over this. Your interview with Craig and him saying “you can always go to Android” was just icing on the cake.
I used to adore Craig, Phil and Joz. Now I don’t and I’m sad 😔
Just as the EU, as an Apple fan I’m not only mad. I’m mostly disappointed. 😢
@michael @stroughtonsmith What do you think they should do?
@gruber @stroughtonsmith in one word: COMPETE. This is what @mgs was writing a long time ago.
Now they don’t have to compete because they’re the only game in town. IAP sucks and it’s OK for them. Other App Stores don’t exist because CTF. They feel entitled to all that just like @marcoarment was saying on @atpfm
But you actually provoked me to write a longer piece and put all my thoughts about DMA and IAP in writing ✍️ from a European dev perspective. Gimme a moment 😎
@michael @stroughtonsmith @mgs @marcoarment @atpfm How are they not competing in a market where they have far less than 50 percent market share?
@michael @stroughtonsmith @mgs @marcoarment @atpfm Are you saying that Apple should capitulate and give up on monetizing third-party development on iOS?
@gruber @michael @stroughtonsmith @mgs @marcoarment @atpfm They probably should unless they want to get forced into a situation where they have to monetize all third party development on iOS and not be allowed to pick and choose who they want to extract money from. The fact that they pick on apps that choose the DMA terms is likely unlawful, the fact that they try and extract extra commission from digital goods while physical goods and services aren't monetized is likely a problem under the DMA.
@gruber @michael @stroughtonsmith @mgs @marcoarment @atpfm Further, if they had to make a fair and universal fee (one limited to the new terms). I suspect this would lead to a lot of apps leaving the store and moving to PWAs, something worse for everyone. Monetizing developer access to iOS is a mistake that will hurt Apple in the long run. If everyone had to pay 0.5/download I think Apple would find out quickly how little companies like Netflix/Amazon/Facebook are willing to pay.
@amonduin @gruber @michael @stroughtonsmith @mgs @marcoarment @atpfm
And what about all the R&D expenses they have for supporting 3rd party development?
@gruber @stroughtonsmith They started similar discussions with Google a while back.
It’s not that different from what happened when for example AB merged with InBev - each regulator says what type of market power would be acceptable to operate in its market, and then companies choose what to divest or spin off locally in order to stay within those boundaries. I don’t see how this would be different just because it’s tech instead of beer, rail, electricity or cereals 🤷♂️
Google faces EU break-up order over anti-competitive adtech practices
Alphabet's <a href="https://www.reuters.com/companies/GOOGL.O/"target="_blank">(GOOGL.O)</a> Google may have to sell part of its lucrative adtech business to address concerns about anti-competitive practices, EU regulators said on Wednesday, threatening the company with its harshest regulatory penalty to date.
@gruber @stroughtonsmith That’s probably what they’re thinking though, and I think they are going to be proven that’s wrong.
Pierre@stroughtonsmith of there are more cases of non compliance despite all the dialogue and negotiations before publication of the DMA, then maybe the problem is with the instructions and boundaries not being clear enough, allowing too much room for interpretation and disagreement between companies and lawmakers. 🤦 this is bad for everybody except for lawyers (our usual reminder that we chose to study the wrong code 😅)