tralfaz
VerbTELEVISIONS ARE JUST SCREENS
they dont need to be smart
make them dumb
make everything dumb immediately
they dont need to be smart
make them dumb
make everything dumb immediately
Mister Moo 🐮@SarraceniaWilds I've never allowed a television to connect to the internet and I never will.
Dan GoodinSo y'all do without streaming then? What do you watch?
The 500 Hats of LambdaCalculus@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds DVDs and Blu-Rays, VHS tapes and LaserDiscs. Or build a Plex or Jellyfin server and make a Kodi or OSMC box, connect the two, and build your own library.
Need media? Reject modernity; embrace tradition! 
@LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
So many things wrong with what y'all are advising:
Do you use debit cards? if so, marketers are scooping up tons more data than from your purchases than they are from streaming.
Telling folks that the only way they can be safe on online is to do with without major platforms that provide tons more viewing choices is not a good way to go. It makes security unnecessarily hard and depriving.
There was a time when DVDs and completely booked the traditional means. Shaming people for using smart TVs is unnecessarily alarmist and not at all constructive.
@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds Hey, you asked what we would do without streaming. I gave you an answer. Jumping down my throat and calling me alarmist is not constructive to this conversation. If you don't like my answer, you can simply mute me and walk away and not carry this further.
No one is twisting your arm to do what we do. If you want to use a smart TV, go ahead. That's your prerogative; I ain't your parent to tell you what to do.
I personally do not want a smart TV. If I need a device for streaming, I would rather just buy a separate device for that, like a Roku or something. That way, if I really *don't* want any streaming at all, it's as easy as unplug the Roku and back in the box it goes. Even now, my Roku's major usage is just for Plex and a couple of additional bits like the SomaFM channel and New Ellijay's streaming TV channel. But if people ask for alternative means, then we should be able to share with them some alternative means of watching stuff. If people also want to watch physical media, who are we to tell them no?
Long and short, lay off people who present an alternative to the mainstream.
@LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Please re-read my reply. No one called you alarmist. It's the advice in this thread that is alarmist. Big difference.
In what universe is it dangerous to hook a smartTV to the Internet, but using a Roku is safe?
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/02/18/roku-privacy
Thinking Roku is safer than a smart TV is completely unfounded and a good example why the advice y'all are giving is antithetical to true security and privacy.
Bob K Mertz 
@dangoodin
A separate device is easier to kill. You need your TV for everything ahs therefore everything is captured.... Playing console games, Blu-Ray, etc is all captured by your TV. Even more so it's a lot cheaper to replace an external Roku is they start going batshit crazy with ads whereas it's not a trivial thing to buy a new TV.
So yes, there is a HUGE difference between having an external device connected to the internet versus the primary device (TV).
@LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Von Xylofon@bobkmertz @dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds You can use a smart TV disconnected perfectly fine. Did that for a year with a Kodi box before putting the TV online also. It worked like any other TV would, and I don't see how it can use the captured stuff when it's not online.
@vonxylofon
Agreed.... The only thing in the back of my mind is whether it looks for open wifi or is pre-populated with keys for things like Xfinity routers. But yes, never connecting it *should* be the same and what I said does still applym
@dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Agreed.... The only thing in the back of my mind is whether it looks for open wifi or is pre-populated with keys for things like Xfinity routers. But yes, never connecting it *should* be the same and what I said does still applym
@dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
@bobkmertz @dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds True, but that's true of any device with a PCB. I have no real way of seeing it has or hasn't got an antenna or an extra processor that does shady stuff. It's all based on trust.
Tersoo Akaahan@LambdaCalculus @dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
he probably has no real idea about #smartdevices
he probably has no real idea about #smartdevices
YetAnotherGeekGuy 
@dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @SarraceniaWilds I don't care for the advertising practices of smart TV vendors (https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2021/3/10/22323790/lg-oled-tv-commercials-content-store), nor do I care to use apps built into my TV which will gradually get slower and lose compatibility over time, nor do I appreciate remote controls themselves being turned into ads for streaming providers. That doesn't mean I don't stream. I'm just more conscientious about what devices I use to stream.
@MisterMoo @LambdaCalculus @SarraceniaWilds
Let me guess: you use a Roku because you think it's safer than a smart TV?
@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds The Roku is not part of my smart TV. I would *never* buy a TV with a Roku built into it. It's a physically separate device, that, at any given time, I can easily just disconnect and put away.
Buying a smart TV is still a far more dangerous avenue; you don't have nearly as much control because the components are baked in. Short of opening the TV and physically ripping the components out (which is way past most average consumers), your hands are tied.
We let computers and such devices get way too comfortable in our lives, and it's really disgusting that you can hardly even get a non-smart TV nowadays, and even when you find one, the prices tend to be worse.
Telling people they're safer buying a smart TV just reeks of irresponsibility to me. At least the separate Roku device can be unplugged and removed. The smart TV can't.
@LambdaCalculus
I have an APC surge strip that had a master outlet and then switched outlets. The master outlet senses a higher power draw so when I turn on my TV it gives power to my Roku and when my TV gets powered off it kills the power to my Roku. I don't want that thing talking on my network all the time.
@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
I have an APC surge strip that had a master outlet and then switched outlets. The master outlet senses a higher power draw so when I turn on my TV it gives power to my Roku and when my TV gets powered off it kills the power to my Roku. I don't want that thing talking on my network all the time.
@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Kartik Agaram@dangoodin It's _using_ smart TVs that makes security hard. For example: https://consumerist.com/2017/01/06/ransomware-spreading-onto-smart-tvs-is-a-pain-to-fix
It's _responsible_ to educate people about the unanticipated and potentially severe consequences of their buying decisions. Particularly _before_ they make smart TVs a part of their habits/lives.
As a programmer, we've already let computers too far into our lives. It seems worth at least fighting a rearguard action against the parts we can still control.
@akkartik @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
It's perfectly safe to connect name-brand TVs to the internet and stream. There's no more risk from that than pirating the movie and watching it on your home network. There's no more risk than connecting a Roku to the internet. Just make sure you take 2 minutes to follow the guidelines here. It's irresponsible to tell people otherwise.
@dangoodin I don't understand why you're repeating yourself. Your link discusses privacy, not security.
You'll also need to elaborate on how pirating a movie is a security risk.
I've never used Roku. I do use first-gen chromecast. But I get to turn it on and off, and I will toss it at the first sign of malfeasance. Easier than tossing a TV. I have leverage.
Telling me I'm irresponsible, jeez, I left Twitter to avoid unjustified rhetoric.
@akkartik @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
There is no data I'm aware of that shows that streaming Netflix, Hulu, et al. is safer with a PC than with a smartTV.
Playing movies, especially pirated ones, downloaded from the internet runs the risk you're going to get a trojan.
2. I can teach my $non_techsavvy_relative to check file extensions before clicking on them.
1. I guess I need to repeat myself now. Check out my link above. TVs and other consumer IoT devices don't get patched as frequently as computers. They also historically don't take security as seriously.
I'd listen to an argument that things have improved. It's possible it's only rain now. But don't tell me nobody's ever pissed on me before.
@dangoodin
It's called digital fingerprinting. In the same way Shazam can tell you what song you are listening to your TV can identify what media you are watching by tracking only small sections of the screen at spaced out intervals. It's not about just Netflix, Hulu, etc.... It's that every single thing you watch your TV can fingerprint and phone home with.
@akkartik @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
It's called digital fingerprinting. In the same way Shazam can tell you what song you are listening to your TV can identify what media you are watching by tracking only small sections of the screen at spaced out intervals. It's not about just Netflix, Hulu, etc.... It's that every single thing you watch your TV can fingerprint and phone home with.
@akkartik @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Darwin Woodka@akkartik @dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
oh you'll find plenty of reply guys here as well
solaslux@dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Why would anyone trust that the settings being exposed with switches to toggle are sufficient to protect their privacy when the switches are being provided by the data harvesters?
Safer to bypass the switches and use another device, preferably one you can customize more completely, and allow, as the OP requested, to just use a dumb screen as a screen.
Streaming doesn't even enter into the equation, there are many ways to enjoy media without the streaming cable-replacements.
So this is where the @dangoodin crusade in defence of "smart" TVs began? Someone said try Jellyfin instead and you were all "that's wrong because debit cards"? Who needs TV for entertainment, when we have threads like these.
silverwizard@dangoodin @LambdaCalculus @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Dan
Dan
DanDanDan
Dan
Are you saying that smart TVs are perfectly safe if you follow a giant listicle of things you need to do?!
That's the solution? every consumer should know what the safe docs are and follow them?
@silverwizard @MisterMoo @dangoodin @SarraceniaWilds A smart TV company probably paid him to write that list.
Rick O@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds you hook up the tv to a device you have more control over and stream from there m
Pete Alex Harris🦡🕸️🌲/∞🪐∫@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
You can let a computer you control connect to the internet and stream images onto a dumb TV via HDMI
A TV that can connect to the internet itself is a computer you don't control, and also one you can't upgrade when the manufacturer drops support to make you buy a new one.
* * *
Make everything in a potentially adversarial relationship with your interests as dumb as physically possible.
* * *
@petealexharris @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
There's no data I'm aware of that supports the idea that streaming Netflix, Hulu et al. is safer with a PC than with a name brand TV.
@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
I'm not talking about information security in this case, I'm talking primarily about consumer exploitation and forced obsolescence.
But also, you can have no confidence that a TV connected directly to the internet with software you can't monitor is ONLY running the apps you want it to, so there is that too if you want an infosec angle. I don't need one to prefer a device that does one simple job well enough.
See ya later dumbass! (Blocked)
Smart TVs are tracking you, and maybe even listening to you talk. Stfu dan.
@dangoodin
@petealexharris @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Smart TVs are tracking you, and maybe even listening to you talk. Stfu dan.
@dangoodin
@petealexharris @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
Jørn@dangoodin @petealexharris @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
When you connect your TV to the internet, the vendor can "upgrade" it against your will so it ceases to be an HDMI-to-eyeball converter until you agree to new terms of service that you didn't receive when you purchased the TV. You're forced to accept or throw away your TV.
If it was a PC, you could format it. If it was your ISPs streaming box, you could return it and connect another HDMI device to your TV.
https://www.wired.com/story/roku-terms-of-service-update-locks-tv/
alcinnz@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds Personally I mostly listen, not watch. There's plenty of superb audioshows online! Or webcomics or ebooks...
Also there's starting to be some excellent indie cartoons posted to YouTube!
At this point I start to grow frustrated by people who insist I'm missing out, since from my perspective...
ʙᴇɴ ᴄᴏᴛᴛᴇяɪʟʟ
Cykonot@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds i just plug in my laptop if i want a big screen. If i regularly used a tv screen, i would just plug an old machine into it.
Typing with tv remotes is an awful waste of time. And there are ads and stuff built into the tv's smart system.
Can also use my phone to output to tvs.
Pusher of Pixels@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
My *television* doesn't connect to anything but the signal inputs from other devices.
It. Is. A. Display. Device.
C.L. Who@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds
1. Streaming device.
2. Connect my laptop to the TV.
3. Connect my phone to the TV.
4. Connect my Steam Deck to the TV.
1. Streaming device.
2. Connect my laptop to the TV.
3. Connect my phone to the TV.
4. Connect my Steam Deck to the TV.
enoch_exe_inc@dangoodin @MisterMoo @SarraceniaWilds You can stream on a TV? Huh. I didn’t know that. I don’t watch the telly anymore, you see; I get all my entertainment on the Internet.
івась тарасик@MisterMoo i've never allowed my tv's to connect to a tv antenna or a cable. been there, no sorry, i'm staying with internet (because i can choose).
Konrad@SarraceniaWilds Well, they are TVs. They are dumb.
Cherry Coakes 
@SarraceniaWilds way ahead of ya c:
Pilsnerd@SarraceniaWilds if my appliances start talking i will shoot them
xrvs@SarraceniaWilds dont you mean telescreens 
Ruben Borg Nielsen
Aman@SarraceniaWilds i concur- i should be the smartest thing in the house!!
MrBadAxeI feel like someone could make bank with a Kickstarter whose pitch is, "It's a 55-inch 4K 120Hz screen with 4 HDMI-In's and the most barebones firmware possible. Oh, you want Netflix? Go buy a used PS4. They're, what, $100 these days?"
derHinek@SarraceniaWilds I agree that smart TVs are a shit show, but saying that TVs are only screens is incorrect. What made them TVs is that they have a tuner to receive what they display, hence the name television (also speakers might be good). One could argue, that today a capability to receive a stream via the internet is just the modern way of a receiver.
Aaron Longchamps@SarraceniaWilds agreed! I don't connect my TV to the network and stream everything on an Apple TV.
Tom BortelsA "smart" TV is an attack surface I don't need in my home.
The same hold true for cars as well, and appliances. Until I can audit and approve the software in any of those, the correct amount is "as little as possible"
be3n@SarraceniaWilds sorry the only thing dumb in America is the populous.
Sodomy Non Sapiens@SarraceniaWilds except the damn programs!
Flere-Imsaho 🇺🇦 (moved)@SarraceniaWilds except politicians. We have enough of dumb politicians.
ultraloveheaven ʚ♡ɞ@SarraceniaWilds needs to match who i am
Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱@SarraceniaWilds OK, I know that "correlation does not imply causation", but is it a coincidence that once we got 'smart TVs', there suddenly seemed to be a lot more stupid people out there banging on about nonsense. 'More research required', I think.