When European settler colonists first encountered the indigenous communities of northeastern North America, many things surprised them about the indigenous communities.

Among these, the Europeans were surprised to discover how restrained and personally responsible the people in these communities were. They very, very rarely engaged in interpersonal violence. They didn’t insult each other; they didn’t lose their tempers around each other.

The Europeans were also surprised to discover that the people in these communities rarely, if ever, disciplined their children. They were, the Europeans believed, impossibly indulgent with their children, allowing them immense personal freedom.

I think it would surprise many contemporary readers that those two things don’t conflict with each other. People living in contemporary state-capitalist modernity tend to assume that children require quite rigid discipline, the routinized order of mass schooling, and fairly constant coercion to keep them out of trouble and turn them into civilized, responsible adults.

It turns out that lots of things we assume to be self-evidently true are not actually true at all.

It’s a baked-in, unquestioned assumption in hegemonic contemporary society that there’s this whole class of people who intrinsically can’t make decisions for themselves and self-evidently must be coercively managed as a result, and meanwhile there are entire societies in which adults don’t even *raise their voices* at children because why would it be ok to shout at people in anger?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/685533353/a-playful-way-to-teach-kids-to-control-their-anger

“But children don’t know better and have to be forced to do things for their own good”

This logic has also been used to control and abuse women, the disabled, and members of minority communities *in our own contemporary society.* It has been employed to justify the enslavement of Black people and genocidal assimilationist policies for indigenous peoples. Whose good is it really for?

I suspect that the vast majority of behaviors parents feel compelled to impose on their children—“I don’t believe in domination but I can’t have my kid doing xyz”—are not at all about the well-being of their child but rather about conforming to the constraints that capitalist modernity imposes on us.

I have to be at work by a certain time set autocratically by my employer, so I have to get my kid to bed at a certain time so *I* can get enough sleep to get to work, or risk losing access to the revenue I need to keep me and my kid alive. The school will impose fines on me and potentially deploy armed truancy police if my kids arrive at school after a time set by bureaucrats who are only superficially responsive to public preferences.

This is one trivial example. It’s worth reflecting on other ways you behave towards children, which believe yourself compelled by responsibility but are actually compelled by authoritarian structures imposed on us from above.

@HeavenlyPossum I can't have my kid eat this battery or they will die. I have to force-feed them this antibiotic or they will lose hearing in their infected ear. I have to constraint them so they don't run into the road or they will get roadkilled. I'm at the toddler stage. Yeah, it's weird being anti auth and having a toddler.

@licho

It’s not really coercive to take action to protect someone who has no control over themselves. If an adult were to sleepwalk towards a cliff, I wouldn’t consider it authoritarian to interpose myself between them and the cliff to stop them from dying.

@HeavenlyPossum see? They don't know any better and have to be forced for their own good. There's no hard line to draw. It's incredibly difficult. Us parents are doing literally best we can. Except some extreme cases, we are driven by the most innate love and instinct a human can have. It's easy to see it as oppression but at the end of the day, you have to do it. Have to forcefully open their mouth and feed that antibiotic. Screens are less extreme, but they cause brain underdevelopment - much more so in a developing brain that doesn't yet fully understands 3D. It's less harmful to the adults.

@HeavenlyPossum There's toothbrushing, that I've worried about as a problem in non-authoritarian parenting. A lot of things, you can explain to children as having immediate consequences. Tooth decay is pretty abstract.

However, children tend to trust adults, if they do not abuse that trust, so if most of the time you can explain why they should or should not do something in terms of immediate consequences, they'll usually accept the occasional, "Trust me, it's important to brush your teeth."

@foolishowl

My kids brush their teeth and I can’t recall ever having to coerce them into it. While there’s inevitably an intrinsic power imbalance between adult and child that will always carry an implicit threat, I’ve always just…talked to them.

@HeavenlyPossum Yeah, in practice, it was just calling out a reminder to brush their teeth before bed.

@foolishowl

I think it’s telling that we get stuff that’s genuinely not coercive (talking to people, persuading them) mixed up with things that are (violence, threats of violence, deprivation facilitated by violence) under the rubric of “parenting” or “discipline.” It’s so normalized that everything gets kind of jumbled up together.

@HeavenlyPossum @foolishowl

The respect and trust that is built by NOT being coercive, means resistance is a lot less likely to even happen.

@HeavenlyPossum
I love this and wholeheartedly believe in it. I think similarly about workplace cultures. Arguing and scolding are often considered compatible with professional behaviour, which makes no sense to me at all. I think that if I speak or act in anger, then I've intrinsically failed as a colleague, but in some fields that would be seen as weakness. In fact, anger is so ingrained in our culture that at first, I read your post as sarcastic. (It's not, obvs!)
@HeavenlyPossum
More so since I got into teaching. Nothing positive can come out of showing anger in class. It's hard though. In 6 years, I think I've yelled in anger once (maybe twice?) and it might help to shock someone to attention, if used sparingly, but it sure doesn't feel like being in control.

@MrBehemo
Workplaces with that dynamic are certainly ugly. I consider myself fairly lucky that I've only experienced that once in my life, unsurprisingly when I worked as a retail salesperson. The floor manager thought it was appropriate to literally yell and scream at me in front of a customer for a minor breach of store procedure while I was in the middle of making a large sale. My response of a raised eyebrow and quietly walking away from the situation (to go into the back and immediately clock out early for an extra long lunch) left her standing there in stunned silence and she didn't say a peep to me when I got back.

@HeavenlyPossum

@HeavenlyPossum Systems that rely on mutual agreement and persuasion rather than a reign of terror are far more resilient because the participants are personally invested into making things work. If you don’t have a say, you’re far more likely to want to see it all burn. Funny how the “elites” keep missing that part because it makes them redundant. Same with landlords who believe they “provide” housing.

@Weedkiller

I think our elites are perfectly aware of how tenuous and brittle their rule is! That’s why they’re so quick to deploy overwhelming and brutal force against the gentlest of public critiques (ie, campus protests), even in self-styled “liberal democracies.”

@HeavenlyPossum Travelling to Japan today gives a westerner a similar impression.
@HeavenlyPossum
Little kids are extremely motivated to help, but generally incompetent. Western societies push the kids away so the task can be performed efficiently by the adult, but other societies let them participate so that when they are bigger they remain motivated and have gained competence.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/05/974069925/are-we-raising-unhelpful-bossy-kids-heres-the-fix

@MisterMadge

I find myself doing this with my own kids and hate myself every time but then do it again without thinking. It always feels like *there just isn’t enough time* so it’s easier if I just do it myself. But of course there is plenty of time; that time is just consumed by the institutions of state and capital.

@HeavenlyPossum I've been meaning to read deeper into the child rearing and general social fabric of other cultures because it's so opposite what I've experienced in my own life.

I've always thought there had to be a better way. Turns out there is.

@HeavenlyPossum

Forgive me for observing an underlying topic here, but it sounds so wrong, in all literatures, the idea of the "colonization".

From Canada to Argentina, the arrival of the Europeans, was just invasion: these lands were inhabited and had their civilizations or tribes, depending on the region of the American continent...

@HeavenlyPossum

For example, I cannot relate the arrival of Cortez, as an act of colonization, but indeed in invasion: claiming lands and resources that were in possession of another people. Same goes for Pizarro, Cabral, pilgrims who expelled indigenous groups from their own lands, even though they were invited to stay there, learn about the resources, the weather conditions, and once they were adapted, they imposed their will on taking those lands (Bury My Heart at Wonder Knee).

@HeavenlyPossum

Again, sorry for observing an underlying topic here, but I felt I had to.

And regarding the topic itself, this idea of regulating people on doing things, following a framework that doesn't take into consideration living instead of existing, embracing nature instead of feeding the capitalism machine, imo, is what put us on an environment of anxiety and struggle to be happy in the long term.

Indigenous communities were free, and they wanted that way for their descendants. Tks.

@desertplains

“Settler colonialism” is a term used to distinguish between kinds of colonialism, not as a euphemism to paper over what they did. Settler colonialism was common in the first phase of European imperialism and entailed the expropriation, replacement, and often genocide of indigenous communities. This is why populations in places like the Americas and Australia is primarily of European descent.

In contrast, the later stages of imperialism were marked by minimal European settlement in favor of highly extractivist economies and indirect rule—think of the plantations of the Kenyan highlands or mines of Zambia.

It doesn’t mean the perpetrators weren’t invaders; it just specifies what kind of invasion they were committing.

@HeavenlyPossum

I see. Thanks for this explanation. It enlightened me, in some way. Makes sense, and intrigues me to know more about the matter.

I know it's too much of a fantasy, but considering the remote possibility of the existence of extraterrestrial life, with a civilization established, then arriving on our planet, appropriating our resources and lands, by force, and establishing the extension of their civilizations: then, I wonder how would it be called such act?

I wonder.

@desertplains

You’re welcome! I suspect we’d call it “an invasion.”

@HeavenlyPossum

I suspect that too. I have an idea to write a book about it, by the way. It requires a lot of research regarding the act of "colonization" as we know in our history. But still, same as you, I suspect. Thanks again for the inputs.

Very appreciated ✌️

@desertplains

Good luck with the book!

@HeavenlyPossum

Thanks. Still embryo idea but, gathering thoughts from like minded people, really helps too. Peace 🙂 🙏

@desertplains @HeavenlyPossum
in english there's a sense-difference between "invasion" and "colonisation

the feeling of invasion is something like "when one group or country enters into or absorbs the territory of a group or country adjacent to it". country A sends armies into country B and annexes it or so

colonisation is something done more at a distance. a group of people from A enter into territory B, claiming B as their own. but in the end the people in B are not really synonymous with A; they are semi or totally independent. e.g. colonies in australia or north america were too far away from england for direct unified rule, so they had to some extent their own leadership and rules and customs and ways of doing things (and in the end this separation broke the empire apart

in sf writing, establishing a new population on a distant planet this way is often conceptualised as colonisation, as the distance of space between any two planets makes for that sort of independence in the same way that oceans did a couple of hundred years ago. of course "invasion" can still be applied to such behaviour in the direct sense of "someone else is entering where we live and commandeering" but
@ageha @HeavenlyPossum @desertplains I found an interesting POV in SF - UK Le Guin's Rocannon's World. IMO the 'invaders' may discover what they are unprepared to meet. Thouht UK Le Guin did not mention what was the feedback on them. What can happen to you if you dare hear what children say ?
@HeavenlyPossum taking schools ( which are dreadful) out of the picture the littles occasionally need discipline. Obviously not physical or harsh but establishing rules is important. We don’t live in a society where we can count on a village to help raise a child. Toddlers need boundaries. Don’t pull the cats tail, don’t run away in public, don’t try and flush things that shouldn’t be flushed down the toilet. You can’t have a logical adult conversation with a two year old.

@CatDragon

“We don’t live in a society” in which we can plausibly allow children the same sort of freedom that they demonstrably and successfully enjoy in other societies; I agree with that much.

I’d encourage you to consider a distinction between “educating” people and *disciplining* people you consider unable to make the same sorts of decisions you can.

@HeavenlyPossum
When my daughters were small they’d fight like feral cats. Totally different personalities from day one.
My ‘discipline’ when it got out of control? I made them sit next to each other on the couch and hold hands.
They’d get so annoyed by me having them do that the anger got redirected and after a few times the behavior stopped.

@CatDragon

How did you “make them” do this?

@HeavenlyPossum are you not familiar with the mom voice?

@CatDragon

So you spoke to them.

@HeavenlyPossum yes, as opposed to yelling. However talking to them without making them sit together did not stop or discourage the behavior.

@CatDragon

But you just talked to them about sitting together.

@HeavenlyPossum In. My. Mom. Voice. I TOLD them to.

@CatDragon

Right. You earlier said that you “made them,” but in reality you just said words to them and received their consent.

There’s a worthwhile distinction to be made between “saying things and receiving consent” and “making someone do something.” There’s an intrinsic power balance between adult and child, without a doubt, and so any consent is going to be tainted a bit by that implicit threat. But we do ourselves a disservice when we jumble together “talking to children” and “coercing them” when we talk vaguely about discipline.

@HeavenlyPossum that to me is discipline. It’s how I was raised. You make a mess you clean it. You break it you fix it to the best of your ability. If you did something truly awful you were assigned an unpleasant chore. No yelling, no violence, just this is what it is.
It is discipline that teaches self discipline.

@CatDragon

Except that, as I noted at the top of this thread, “discipline” is not actually what teaches self-discipline at all.

@HeavenlyPossum we will agree to disagree. When discipline consists of making the littles understand there are consequences for some behaviors it does teach self discipline, in my opinion.

@CatDragon @HeavenlyPossum if the consequences are not an actual direct consequence of the thing they did but punishment imposed by an external authority, will it work when you’re not around? If children learn that “when I do this thing it makes mom mad/I have to do this annoying chore / ect they will learn that it’s ok to do it if they can get away with it. They might be compelled to do it out of defiance. While if they learn the actual reason why it’s bad, they might be less likely to do that and they will trust you enough to call for your help when they need it, not fearing that they will get in trouble.

(But these are just my thoughts as someone who isn’t a parent and hasn’t ever considered becoming one, and has no other kind of expertise about that topic, so I may just be talking out of my ass)

@enby_of_the_apocalypse @HeavenlyPossum we had extended family around when they were littles who supported the way we were raising them. We taught by example and while there were disagreements the spouse and I didn’t and don’t raise our voices or name call.
A reprimand should never be harsh. “You” is unproductive, “I” and “we” are . This is how communication is built.
@HeavenlyPossum I will also add in this. My grandson is T1D. He was diagnosed at 3 years old. I can assure you that you cannot educate a toddler as to the benefit of being stuck multiple times a day. Bribing does not work when their fingertips are raw from testing and they’ve just Had Enough. Sometimes things needed to be taken away and earned back. Sometimes outings had to be cancelled.
You know, because we didn’t want him to die.
Renote with added content warnings, see above or https://kolektiva.social/@HeavenlyPossum/112342445468099534.
HeavenlyPossum (@[email protected])

When European settler colonists first encountered the indigenous communities of northeastern North America, many things surprised them about the indigenous communities. Among these, the Europeans were surprised to discover how restrained and personally responsible the people in these communities were. They very, very rarely engaged in interpersonal violence. They didn’t insult each other; they didn’t lose their tempers around each other. The Europeans were also surprised to discover that the people in these communities rarely, if ever, disciplined their children. They were, the Europeans believed, impossibly indulgent with their children, allowing them immense personal freedom. I think it would surprise many contemporary readers that those two things don’t conflict with each other. People living in contemporary state-capitalist modernity tend to assume that children require quite rigid discipline, the routinized order of mass schooling, and fairly constant coercion to keep them out of trouble and turn them into civilized, responsible adults. It turns out that lots of things we assume to be self-evidently true are not actually true at all.

kolektiva.social
@HeavenlyPossum As a parent, most reasons I have to "discipline my child" (i.e. tell them no or stop them from doing something) are the direct result of the way our society works (property rights, capitalism, etc).

@ln

Yes! Same!!

Aka “it‘s my obligation to keep you out of trouble with the powers that be who will inevitably punish you if you don’t remain obedient and passive”