HeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

When European settler colonists first encountered the indigenous communities of northeastern North America, many things surprised them about the indigenous communities.

Among these, the Europeans were surprised to discover how restrained and personally responsible the people in these communities were. They very, very rarely engaged in interpersonal violence. They didn’t insult each other; they didn’t lose their tempers around each other.

The Europeans were also surprised to discover that the people in these communities rarely, if ever, disciplined their children. They were, the Europeans believed, impossibly indulgent with their children, allowing them immense personal freedom.

I think it would surprise many contemporary readers that those two things don’t conflict with each other. People living in contemporary state-capitalist modernity tend to assume that children require quite rigid discipline, the routinized order of mass schooling, and fairly constant coercion to keep them out of trouble and turn them into civilized, responsible adults.

It turns out that lots of things we assume to be self-evidently true are not actually true at all.

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 27, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum taking schools ( which are dreadful) out of the picture the littles occasionally need discipline. Obviously not physical or harsh but establishing rules is important. We don’t live in a society where we can count on a village to help raise a child. Toddlers need boundaries. Don’t pull the cats tail, don’t run away in public, don’t try and flush things that shouldn’t be flushed down the toilet. You can’t have a logical adult conversation with a two year old.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

“We don’t live in a society” in which we can plausibly allow children the same sort of freedom that they demonstrably and successfully enjoy in other societies; I agree with that much.

I’d encourage you to consider a distinction between “educating” people and *disciplining* people you consider unable to make the same sorts of decisions you can.

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 27, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum
When my daughters were small they’d fight like feral cats. Totally different personalities from day one.
My ‘discipline’ when it got out of control? I made them sit next to each other on the couch and hold hands.
They’d get so annoyed by me having them do that the anger got redirected and after a few times the behavior stopped.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

How did you “make them” do this?

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 27, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum are you not familiar with the mom voice?
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

So you spoke to them.

Show threadCatherine is not complacent
@HeavenlyPossum yes, as opposed to yelling. However talking to them without making them sit together did not stop or discourage the behavior.
Apr 27, 2024 at 3:21pmWeb
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

But you just talked to them about sitting together.

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 27, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum In. My. Mom. Voice. I TOLD them to.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

Right. You earlier said that you “made them,” but in reality you just said words to them and received their consent.

There’s a worthwhile distinction to be made between “saying things and receiving consent” and “making someone do something.” There’s an intrinsic power balance between adult and child, without a doubt, and so any consent is going to be tainted a bit by that implicit threat. But we do ourselves a disservice when we jumble together “talking to children” and “coercing them” when we talk vaguely about discipline.

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 27, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum that to me is discipline. It’s how I was raised. You make a mess you clean it. You break it you fix it to the best of your ability. If you did something truly awful you were assigned an unpleasant chore. No yelling, no violence, just this is what it is.
It is discipline that teaches self discipline.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumApr 27, 2024

@CatDragon

Except that, as I noted at the top of this thread, “discipline” is not actually what teaches self-discipline at all.

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 28, 2024
@HeavenlyPossum we will agree to disagree. When discipline consists of making the littles understand there are consequences for some behaviors it does teach self discipline, in my opinion.
Show threadundead enby of the apocalypseApr 29, 2024

@CatDragon @HeavenlyPossum if the consequences are not an actual direct consequence of the thing they did but punishment imposed by an external authority, will it work when you’re not around? If children learn that “when I do this thing it makes mom mad/I have to do this annoying chore / ect they will learn that it’s ok to do it if they can get away with it. They might be compelled to do it out of defiance. While if they learn the actual reason why it’s bad, they might be less likely to do that and they will trust you enough to call for your help when they need it, not fearing that they will get in trouble.

(But these are just my thoughts as someone who isn’t a parent and hasn’t ever considered becoming one, and has no other kind of expertise about that topic, so I may just be talking out of my ass)

Show threadCatherine is not complacentApr 29, 2024
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @HeavenlyPossum we had extended family around when they were littles who supported the way we were raising them. We taught by example and while there were disagreements the spouse and I didn’t and don’t raise our voices or name call.
A reprimand should never be harsh. “You” is unproductive, “I” and “we” are . This is how communication is built.