big awoo notation
I'm an abandonware radicalist; not only should abandoned software have its source released, abandoned hardware should be opened up to development to stop it being ewaste.
Apr 13, 2024 at 6:05pmWeb
Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
okay, I muted this; if you wanna talk about this stuff, mention me in another message.

fuckin' 500 likes. christ. I hope the new followers are friendly.

now it's past a thousand. what the hell.
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 13, 2024

@lofty

"Electronic waste" enabled by "planned obsolescence" is bullshit. If you're starting a single-issue party about that, I'm in.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 15, 2024
@angelastella @lofty A frustrating example. My wife has been using a 2010 iMac for 14 years. No problems with it at all. But we're going to have to replace it because it won't run recent operating system which are required for upgrades of key software. Infuriating.
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 15, 2024

@mike

Typical. After she gets her data out and sanitizes the machine, please donate it. Someone will squeeze a few more years of use out of it.

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 15, 2024
@angelastella I hope so ... but who do you think will want it?
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 15, 2024

@mike

Ask people who post under #/retrocomputing, I think they have the right attitude about this (and they're not all talking about Z80s and 6502s).

Show threadwijfiApr 16, 2024
@mike @angelastella @lofty just liberated my wife's macbook air we got refurbished in 2016. Would have gone in a landfill but I installed @LubuntuOfficial & it's working like it did almost 10 years ago. It's a shame how unfriendly this process is to normal users who don't have time or resources to learn how to install and use Linux compared to the... "Convenience" of Apple... But as quick & easy as it seems once you learn it why would anyone expect people to take the less convenient option?
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 16, 2024

@Wijfi @lofty @LubuntuOfficial

If you can help @mike and his wife i'm positive they would appreciate it in the name of whoever benefits from receiving a functioning machine.

Show threadwijfiApr 16, 2024
@angelastella @lofty @LubuntuOfficial @mike would of course be happy to if they're interested. At the very least it's a fun learning experience to rescue an old machine!
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 16, 2024
@Wijfi @angelastella @lofty @LubuntuOfficial This is neat, but in the version of the story we inhabit, it has to be Mac OS. (Because it has to be Logic Pro, which is Mac exclusive.)
Show threadwijfiApr 16, 2024
@mike @angelastella @lofty @LubuntuOfficial maybe you'll still need a new one but you can repurpose the old one for something else - something to stream media, a retro gaming console... Anything is better than ewaste
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 16, 2024
@Wijfi @angelastella @lofty @LubuntuOfficial I share your hatred of the waste, but there's really nothing an iMac can do better than other devices. (I play games on a Steam Deck and stream media from my laptop.)
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 16, 2024

@mike @lofty @LubuntuOfficial

As I suggested earlier, maybe let that be other people's problem, @Wijfi?

Ángela Stella Matutina (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Ask people who post under #/retrocomputing, I think they have the right attitude about this (and they're not all talking about Z80s and 6502s).

Treehouse Mastodon
Show threadKater_SApr 17, 2024
@mike @angelastella @lofty With 2010 I assume you already make use of OpenCore to gain a few more generations of macOS?
I slowly run into similar problems with my 2014 iMac 5K and will try OpenCore soon.
Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 17, 2024

@kater_s @angelastella @lofty I'd not even heard of OpenCore. It seems to be part of the Hackintosh project, which I always understood to be about running MacOS on non-Mac hardware.

I think my issue is different: recent version of MacOS will not run on my old Mac hardware. I don't know if it's because they depend on more recent hardware features, or just a refusal that I could somehow override and all would be well.

Show threadKater_SApr 17, 2024
@mike @angelastella @lofty No, it‘s about giving older Macs the opportunity to install newer macOS versions than intended by Apple. Have a look at https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher and then "Getting started" and "Supported models".
However, very old models have issues regarding Metal support which is an integral part of newer macOS versions. And eventually Apple will drop Intel support completely – but this will still take some OS generations, I think.
OpenCore Legacy Patcher

Experience macOS just like before

Show threadMike Taylor 🦕Apr 17, 2024
@kater_s Helpful, thanks!
Show threadpedro 🍉Apr 13, 2024
@lofty This
Show threadJonathan ‘theJPster’ PallantApr 13, 2024
@lofty @ubik doesn’t seem that radical. Seems perfectly reasonable.
Show threadbig awoo notationApr 13, 2024
@thejpster in modern times it seems like common sense is inherently radical >.>
Show threadChargedHexApr 13, 2024

@lofty Nevermind abandoned software and hardware, I'm of the view that purchasing software or hardware should include the tools necessary to control every bit of data in every RAM and register and the documentation necessary to do so.

I understand that it's much easier to make the abandonware argument though, and I also support that. It'd be a nice compromise if companies had to submit documentation and programming tools to some kind of agency that timed the public release for a few years after the launch date. That way, millions of products wouldn't become e-waste if a company is suddenly bought out or goes bankrupt.

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 13, 2024
@chargedhex I mean, I think so too, but points at yuzu the powers that be have other ideas.
Show threadhackilluApr 16, 2024
@lofty @chargedhex Yuzu _did_ do something illegal. They made money of offering what they did, while people used it with ROMs still sold. Seriously. I mean, if the Switch was standardized or something like that, Nintendo would not be able to develop stuff. I mean, screw Nintendo, but you go make an innovative producer of stuff if you think you can do better. Game studios go bankrupt all the time, so I'm not sure if hedging should be outlawed.
Show threadSteven WoolgarApr 13, 2024
@lofty @brouhaha _looking at you iTunes/AppleMusic for macOS._
Show threadWhiskers 🇦🇺Apr 14, 2024
@woolie @lofty @brouhaha 🤔 My itunes is still healthy and in daily use
Show threadSteven WoolgarApr 14, 2024
@ecoscore @lofty @brouhaha do you mean Apple Music or iTunes, because iTunes was renamed to Apple Music quite a while ago.
Show threadJake in the desertApr 14, 2024
@lofty HARD AGREE
Show threadCoolMcCoolApr 14, 2024
@lofty I have v1 iPad lying in a cupboard that completely agrees with you.
Show threadTyler BurtonApr 14, 2024
@lofty I agree with you in principle but I’m not sure how that would work in practice. Sure some products from companies still operating could be made that way but there’s an awful lot of e-waste from companies that no longer exist. Also hard to compel a company to open up their products before they vanish when they can’t pay their own staff. Perhaps one option would be to ensure that it is at least unequivocally legal for others to open it up after the company no longer exists.
Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@tylerburton

in the world of patents, creators get 20 years of exclusivity in exchange for detailing how inventions work such that future generations can use it.

so I'm thinking a similar escrow system, where a company's secret implementation details must be registered with something in exchange for being able to claim they're secret.
Show threadQCATOPR Apr 14, 2024
@lofty @tylerburton You used to have to submit everything to the Copyright office to get copyright. Maybe they should resurrect that for hardware and software.
Show threadGaëtan PerraultApr 15, 2024

@timjclevenger @lofty @tylerburton

This is really the core problem and likely the important solution.

We're granting a lot of copyright to orgs who haven't actually sold "copies" of anything.

Abandoned software should lose its copyright status. We may not have original source code in all cases, but at least we would open the door to reverse engineers.

Abandoned hardware should lose any patent and copyright protection for its components.

Still some messy parts, but a better direction.

Show threadFeu d'jais Apr 14, 2024
@lofty I wish we could run our own Metroid Prime Hunters servers to remember good old times.
Show threadmmu_manApr 14, 2024
@lofty see https://fsfe.org/activities/upcyclingandroid/
Upcycling Android - FSFE

Free Software Foundation Europe is a charity that empowers users to control technology. We enable people to use, understand, adapt, and share software.

FSFE - Free Software Foundation Europe
Show threadMichael DexterApr 14, 2024

@lofty
Talking to Adobe folks about one of my all-time favorite pieces of abandonware, FreeHand, they said that such tools have significant amounts of sub-licensed code for say file formats, compression, printing, etc.

In theory one can work around all that, but it's not as simple as handing over the keys.

I guess we still need invest in open source development...
@chexum

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@dexter counterpoint: the sublicensed code would also have to hand over the keys.
Show threadMichael DexterApr 14, 2024
@lofty
Amen.
Show threadKim Spence-Jones 🇬🇧😷Apr 14, 2024
@dexter @lofty @chexum Well, if the sublicenced code is still being maintained then licences would still be required for those parts. If it isn’t, it should fall under the same release rules.
Show threadThom, exceedingly pureApr 14, 2024
@lofty I'm even more extreme. Since our entire society depends on the hardware and software we, corporations, and governments use - everything needs to be open source, from application down to firmware. To protect our privacy, national security, and competition all code must be open by default.
Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@thomholwerda you're coming at this from a security perspective, but I don't necessarily think open source code is inherently more secure; I'm coming at this from a "the survival of out planet depends on being able to repair and reuse items" perspective.
Show threadThom, exceedingly pureApr 14, 2024

@lofty Valid point, of course, but I meant it more like that we have a right to know what our software and hardware is doing, and that's a hell of a lot easier with open code.

But yeah, agreed, it won't magically make code more secure - but it will make it harder to hide things.

Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 14, 2024

@thomholwerda @lofty

It will go a long way towards ensuring infrastructure remains viable.

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@thomholwerda I had an old friend - Near - who was a very talented emulation developer. They managed to replicate and preserve the hardware that gave Stephen Hawking his voice before it fell apart.

It was an amazing task, and Near deserves full credit for it, but it would not have been necessary if this stuff was reasonably documented to begin with; can you imagine having your voice, the thing associated with you everywhere, disappear because "it's proprietary" becomes "it's obsolete" becomes "it's forgotten" becomes "it's irreparable".

I keep thinking of the people who had cutting-edge technology implants - that helped them regain quality of life - removed because the technology was considered obsolete and the company didn't want to maintain it.
Show threadThom, exceedingly pureApr 14, 2024

@lofty That's damn heartbreaking, and all that extra work so unnecessary. Imagine if it had been spent on *improving* that tech instead of reverse-engineering it.

Totally with you on this one. Who wouldn't be.

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@thomholwerda I don't entirely agree that the goal was "improving that tech": hawking was offered upgrades to better speech technology throughout his life, but those upgrades were not his voice.
Show threadÁngela Stella MatutinaApr 14, 2024

@lofty @thomholwerda

Improving it for others, maybe?

Show threadThom, exceedingly pureApr 14, 2024
@angelastella @lofty Yeah that's what I meant. If that person didn't have to spend precious time getting it to work again, they could've used his time to e.g. improve it, or make it easier and cheaper to make, etc.
Show threadtsvetyApr 14, 2024

@lofty I would definitely agree with you. one kind of edge case bothers me though:
how would you treat a hardware device that uses some protected secret sauce that is abandoned, when forty years later the company that made it still makes similar devices with the same secret sauce. said company's entire reason for selling devices is that secret sauce and that's how they compete.

maybe I'm just not creative enough, but I don't see many resolutions to this that make sense. 1) they could be compelled to release all details on that old machine, thus compromising the secrecy of the sauce in all machines from then until now and into the future. 2) they could be compelled to support that machine for as long as they want their sauce secret. neither seem to be a good idea.
also this assumes that industrial secrets are of course supposed to be secret.
(my particular machine in mind is a specific and dull imaging machine)

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@tsvety

re 1): patents, for example, have relatively short lifespans compared to, say, copyright or trademarks, specifically because humanity is better off when "secret sauce" isn't secret. if the company goes bust and the secret sauce is lost to the winds of time, aren't we worse off?

re 2): I actually consider this to be a reasonable compromise: if a company considers the "secret sauce" to still be valuable, then the old machine is valuable because of the secret sauce. more to the point, repairing old things (to the extent possible) is better for our environment.
Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@tsvety I am an avid lover of trains, and these are an excellent example of trying to keep old things working for as long as possible, because they still have value. The UK recently retired its fifty-year-old fleet of HSTs because they didn't meet modern accessibility regulations (...never mind that several operators refurbished the trains so that they did), but they could still comfortably do 200 km/h in daily service without problems.
Show threadGreenDotGuyApr 14, 2024

@lofty IMO, companies should have to escrow source code and schematics with the government in order to get copyright and patent protection, and pay a small fee to cover escrow costs every few years.

If nobody re-ups on a record, it goes public. People could also petition to assess whether a company is just 'camping' on IP in anti-social/anti-market ways.

Show threadbig awoo notationApr 14, 2024
@DarcMoughty I think this is too conservative; I don't think there's a fair tradeoff in a fee structure which would balance "affordability to small companies" and "sufficiently annoying to a corporate giant that they'd want to release information". that's why I have a time limit in mind instead.
Show threadTim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPEApr 14, 2024
@lofty And any film for (etc) which you can't buy the DVD (or modern equivalent) should be legal to copy.
Show threadU.LancierApr 14, 2024
@lofty absolutely.
Electronics should be sellable after a deposit of its complete documentation only. And if the producer isn't servicing it anymore any IP necessary for further use should be void. The documentation has to become public domain then.
Show threadburgerbeckyApr 14, 2024
@lofty I’ve been advocating this for years.
Show threadShineApr 15, 2024
@lofty and just to prevent them from "losing" the source code / schematics, the moment it's released (and for all subsequent revisions / updates), a mandatory copy should be sent to public archive. We already do that with books, so it's not exactly a new concept.